Best 2pt non locking tremolo?

[rauchman]

Greetings,

What is the "best" 2pt non locking trem system these days?  It seems the ones that get the most buzz are the Wilkenson VS100 and various flavors of the Gotoh 510's.  Also, the non fine tuner Floyd Rose.

At least from the perspective of options available through Warmoth, it seems the difference is the availability of a semi recessed route for the Wilkenson.  I understand Warmoth now routes for the NFT Floyd, but is a recessed route available for it?

I believe, the Gotoh has developed a string locking system in the saddle, that is rumored to be available as an upgrade at some point.  The 510 has the 1/16th string spacing option.  Does the VS100?  Assuming good nut and locking tuners, between the Wilkenson and 510, is one better is staying in tune than the other.  How is the feel?  Can one dive bomb?  Any advantages for either? 

Are there other options I'm missing?  Is the Fender 2pt good?

 

[Cagey]

I'm a big fan of Schaller's "Vintage" tremolo. Two point knife-edge fulcrum, and roller saddles. Everything is either hardened or stainless. Simple and effective, stays in tune nicely. I have them on a couple guitars, and would use them more often if they were easier to find. Seems to me their pivot post spacing is non-standard, but check me on that. It's supposed to be a drop-in replacement for Fender's AmStd vibrato, but I don't think it is. But, as I said, my memory may be failing me here.

 

[stratamania]

The Schaller Vintage Tremolo Cagey mentioned is not really vintage at all and it fits Floyd spacing. But it does not lock the strings at the bridge

The FR NFT and Gotoh 510 I like both. The NFT will provide a little more stability as the strings are clamped.

If you want an NFT without a recess a Floyd with the angled pocket option from Warmoth will work but you need a specific pickguard as the NFT is wider than the standard Floyd.

If you want a recessed rout the NFT is available from Warmoth. You also need the NFT pickguard.

Here is one to take a look at.

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=30445


The Gotoh trem with locking saddles mentioned is actually a Suhr / Wilkinson offering. They will not be broadly available until Suhr's needs are met. It will fit a 510 rout. But if you had a recessed rout for a 510 (which Warmoth does not offer) it will not fit apparently.

 

[rauchman]

Gentlemen, very much appreciated.  How does the Wilkinson VS100 compare?

I've seen the Schaeller listed, and it looks like a nice trem.  However, the idea would be to get a trem that would fit a recessed route that Warmoth would do.  Having said that, the 510 seems to be very popular.

 

[Cagey]

I've installed/used a boatload of VS100s and like those really well, too. The only advantage to the Schaller over the Wilkie is the roller saddles, if you believe the last inch of string stretches enough in normal use to affect tuning. It's questionable to me, but if you can have roller saddles, why not eliminate the question? Warmoth will route/drll* for it, but not recessed. It's a short enough bridge that I don't think it needs to be recessed, but that's just me.

In my experience, just about all the dual post knife-edge fulcrum vibratos work quite well, given locking tuners and a well-cut nut. With that setup, even Floyds don't need locking nuts. I'm sure the only reason Floyd Rose even came up with the locking nut kluge was at the time, there were no such things as locking tuners. Although, to be fair, well-cut nuts aren't as common as one might hope, and they're crucial.

*Check me on it, but I believe it's the top-mount Floyd pattern that will take that bridge with no mods.

 

[Mattt]

Rauchman,

If a recessed Gotoh 510 in on your radar, you might want to express your interest in one at my thread on it here: https://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=30571.0

 

[rauchman]

Greetings,

One thing I'm not clear on, do the Gotoh 510 and Wilkenson VS100 give the same dive bomerability as something like a Floyd Rose?

 

[AirCap]

One thing I'm not clear on, do the Gotoh 510 and Wilkenson VS100 give the same dive bomerability as something like a Floyd Rose?

Here's the deal: On a fully locking system like a Floyd, the strings remain the same length while dropping in pitch - the harmonics never move. On a non-locking system - even one with locking tuners, the amount of string actually lengthens a bit, which makes the harmonics move on the string. It affects the sound somewhat, doesn't dump as far as a Floyd, and sometimes loses sustain.

That said, how many times are you going to dump it all the way in one night? Once, twice? If you want a Gotoh or Wilkinson - get them. I've had all of them and I prefer either a Kahler cam type or a Wilkinson VS100. Floyds are a PITA, and contrary to all the fan boys - are not really well made. They lack adjustability, and are a bitch to install aftermarket. I hate 'em.

 

[stratamania]

Greetings,

One thing I'm not clear on, do the Gotoh 510 and Wilkenson VS100 give the same dive bomerability as something like a Floyd Rose?

No in a word.

 

[BroccoliRob]

Greetings,

One thing I'm not clear on, do the Gotoh 510 and Wilkenson VS100 give the same dive bomerability as something like a Floyd Rose?

No in a word.

And if they did bomb that hard you'd have to stop in the middle of the song re-tune every string. Baby, you just GOTS to have a lock nut for that kind of dank bombage.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Not always, I've dive bombed & yanked sharp some very well setup EBMM JP's and for the life of me couldn't get them to go out of tune.  I've also walked into Guitarget plenty of times & grabbed poorly setup Floyds that couldn't stay in tune.

 

[stratamania]

Not always, I've dive bombed & yanked sharp some very well setup EBMM JP's and for the life of me couldn't get them to go out of tune.  I've also walked into Guitarget plenty of times & grabbed poorly setup Floyds that couldn't stay in tune.

Of course, an EBMM JP does not have a Gotoh 510 or Wilkinson VS100.

And a bad setup of anything does not work as it should.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

I've had the same results on American Standard Strats with the 2 post trem & Sperzels as well.

 

[TheGreatRedDragon]

The Schaller Vintage Tremolo, does it fit a regular Floyd pickguard or is it like the FR NFT and require a slightly larger cutout?

 

[aarontunes]

My favorite non-lockers are the Gotoh 510 and the MANN system used by PRS. That said, I've never met one I couldn't make go out of tune by employing a little enthusiasm.


For this reason I always prefer a Floyd.


But....let's say that by keeping the nut perfectly cut and lubed, and using locking tuners, you could make a non-locker stay in tune. I don't see how that's any less trouble than taking a few minutes extra to string up a Floyd.


Those extra minutes aren't a big thing to me, and an easy trade-off for being able to use the trem without worry.

 

[Cagey]

That's a great unit, and I've used it twice. The blue ice Tele in my sig below has one, f'rinstance. But, no pickguard involved so I can't answer what'll fit. Still, I wouldn't let that slow me down. As little modification as would be necessary, should it come to that, could be done fairly easily with a file and some sandpaper. It's not a big unit, so I doubt you'd have to do anything at all.

 

[aarontunes]

The Schaller Vintage Tremolo, does it fit a regular Floyd pickguard or is it like the FR NFT and require a slightly larger cutout?

According to the spec sheets here:


https://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-floydrose/2146-FRnonfinetuner-specs.pdf


and here:


https://schaller.info/en/tremolos/349/vintage-tremolo


...they are very, very close.


In theory, they may be interchangeable. But, as they say: the difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference.

 

[TheGreatRedDragon]

Hurm, well I'm gonna file that one away in my "dashed hopes" folder then. Thanks for the info.

 

[rauchman]

Greetings,

Thought I'd update this post.

On my most recent build, I went with the Wilky VS100 for the bridge.  Overall, a very nice unit...smooth with good feel and tone.  In conjunction with an LSR nut and locking tuners, it holds tuning well, but can be knocked out of tune with some "enthusiastic" use .....as Aaron puts it.

I also have a G&L USA Legacy Special, which uses the G&L trem.  Gotta say, I prefer the G&L unit to the Wilkinson.  Doesn't hold tuning any better, but the unit feels like it has more mass, and is definitely more sensitive to use in pitch dynamics, which I prefer.  Not sure if this because the trem is routed differently on the G&L body, but it does "dive bomb" better than the Wilky.  Both are pitched to a neutral angle in their setup.  I'm now on a quest to see what the G&L trem dimensions are to see if it will retrofit in a 2 point Fender / Gotoh 510 route.

Also have another body coming with the Gotoh 510 route.  If the G&L doesn't fit, will be going with the Gotoh 510 narrow space and see how that compares.

 

[Rick]

I've got the Gotoh 510 narrow space and it works fine.