Beginner question about headstock decal finishing

[ptirman]

I am starting 2 new Warmoth builds! It's been a while since I have been here and know that there is a wealth of experience here. I actually cut my forum teeth here.

I had a custom decal made and I want to put them on and cover them with lacquer so you don't see the decal edge. I have looked at numerous (ok 3) Youtube videos, a few Stew-Mac videos, and have read multiple forum threads and websites about this and am confused about a few things. The necks will come with clear gloss finish by Warmoth.

I understand that there are many ways to do this.

My questions are the following and any insight from you guys would be greatly appreciated! btw if anyone has a decent step by step (including graphics like photos), I would love to see the link:

Can you spray clear gloss acrylic over nitro?
Is there an advantage to doing that or should just stick to nitro?
Wet or dry sand after each coat with >600 or does it matter?
How many coats (I was thinking between 3-5 light coats), then 2 heavier?
Do you spray the decal and let dry before putting it in water to apply?

Thanks for any insight,
Phillip

 

[Verne Bunsen]

Well I'll tell you how I do it. Admittedly I've never done it quite the same way twice as with each one I'm trying to work through the parts that gave me trouble in the previous one, but this is where I'm at now. When I was doing the initial research before my first decal, this was hands down the best tutorial I found:

http://www.talkbass.com/threads/decal-application-pic-tutorial.682386/

I use shellac for finishing headstocks, as it will go on successfully over just about anything and has the appearance that I'm after when it's done. And it's pretty forgiving. The Zinser Bulls Eye Clear is my go-to. Most custom decals come with a coat of finish on them, but if that's not the case then it will definitely help you out to do that. Three light coats and let dry thoroughly. Since your headstocks are already finished, you're ahead of the curve there. Before applying the decal, I always wipe the headstock down with naptha to get the surface squeaky clean.

Day 1: Apply the decal. Get it positioned just-so, work the air bubbles out with gentle finger pressure, and gently blot dry. Leave to dry overnight.
Day 2: Shoot three rediculously light misting coats 30 minutes or so apart and leave to dry overnight. Too much at this stage and the decal will lift/crinkle/bubble. Ask me about how I know...
Day 3: Shoot another three light coats 30 minutes or so apart and leave to dry over night.
Day 4: In the morning, shoot 3 "normal" wet coats 30 minutes or so apart and leave to dry. In the evening, knock the finish down lightly with a scotchbrite pad.
Day 5: In the morning, shoot 3 "normal" wet coats 30 minutes or so apart and leave to dry. In the evening, knock the finish down lightly with a scotchbrite pad.
Day 6: In the morning, shoot 3 "normal" wet coats 30 minutes or so apart and leave to dry. In the evening, knock the finish down lightly with a scotchbrite pad.
Day 7: It's curing. Think about other things.
Day 8: Nice day to take the kids to the park, check out that new lunch place with the wife.
Day 9: Water the plants, maybe check on the furnace filters. In all seriousness though, the longer you can leave the finish to cure the better. I travel a lot for work, typically two weeks at a time. I usually try to time things so I'm done spraying before I leave, then I can leave it alone for the whole two weeks. Barring that, I personally consider 3 days to be a safe minimum window.
Day 10 (or whatever): Start wetsanding with 800 wet/dry. I've had nothing but terrible luck wetsanding headstocks with water, as despite my best efforts (some of which have been pretty darn clever I'll have you know), water gets into the exposed end grain in the tuner holes and causes swelling, headaches and irritability. So I've taken to wet sanding very carefully with naptha. In a well ventilated area, wearing gloves, goggles and a half-face respirator with organic vapor cartridges. My neighbors are used to seeing this sort of thing by now. I continue this until the border of the decal has disappeared and the headstock has a generally smooth and uniform appearance. From there, I use 3M polishing paper in 400, 600, 1200 and 4000 to bring out the pretty. Then I hit it with the carnauba wax, give it a buff, and admire my handiwork.

So there it is, how I do it. Certainly not the only way, probably not the best way, but it is one way. I'm hoping that a bunch of other people will chime in here with different methods, as this will give you a nice pool of techniques to pick from and frankly I'm always looking for a better/easier way to accomplish this particular feat. No doubt after you do yours you'll have some ideas and I look forward to hearing them too. Good luck to you!

 

[stratamania]

Pretty much as Verne stated, but just use Nitro with Nitro to be on the safe side. And those light mist coats are important.

Light mist coats, then building up sufficient thickness, then at least two to three weeks of proper curing time prior to wet sanding.

And don't be tempted to spray coats that are too heavy as they will run.

In fact I would say get a scrap piece of wood and try on that to start with.

Soak the decal enough but not too much. Too much and it won't stick properly and not enough it won't leave the backing paper without a risk of tearing.

Make sure you aren't pressed for time and you are well rested. That applies to most things worth doing.

Oh and a respirator and good ventilation when working with nitro is a must.
Good luck...

 

[Verne Bunsen]

Make sure you aren't pressed for time and you are well rested.

That's huge. Most of my "best learning opportunities" (i.e. most catastrophic screw-ups) in this regard have been directly related to getting ahead of myself, trying to save time. It takes time to do it right, but doesn't take much time at all to do something you wish you hadn't.

 

[ptirman]

Extremely helpful! I need to get naphtha and a couple of fans and a ventilator!

I am going to take a lot of this advice including trying it out first (the decal maker gave me a few to practice with),cleaning, light misting, learn what a "normal" coat is and importantly, take my time. My wife is away for a year doing an internship in another state (a big reason I decided to take on these projects) and I, like you, will travel a lot over the next year so I'll let it cure.

Biggest challenge will be explaining 2 new guitars to her (just joshing, she is very cool about the whole guitar obsession).

I'll also document this whole process and ask opinions for quality control.

Thanks again, very helpful info.

Phillip

 

[Glimmer]

vikingred recently posted two MOs in the "burnishing raw necks" thread: the first includes using shellac as base coat, the second involves applying the decal to the raw but burnished headstock *sans* shellac or nitro. Thought it would be good to add them to this list.

 

[stratamania]

Here's another link where we discussed decal application with vikingred

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=25406.msg366093#msg366093

I know he has had success applying the lacquer over a burnished surface, but I do wonder how durable it will be. Time will tell.

 

[Glimmer]

I know he has had success applying the lacquer over a burnished surface, but I do wonder how durable it will be. Time will tell.

Indeed.

 

[ptirman]

Following Verne's technique advice. Put the decal on and have done 3 light mistings of nitro lacquer (guitar reranch rattle can instead of shellac though). So far so good. You can see the edges but I'm expecting to at this early stage.

Walnut neck with canary fretboard. I'll post more as the edges (hopefully) begin to disappear with more nitrocellulose lacquer and wet sanding.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

That's fine looking wood! How'd they turn out for you?

 

[Glimmer]

Curious about that myself.

This is one of the things I didn't have the time (and wonder if I would have had the patience) for on my recent build.

 

[ptirman]

That's fine looking wood! How'd they turn out for you?

Thanks well it's funny but I changed course a few weeks ago. After the last post I started light sanding with 600 followed by 12 and 1500. I scratched the decal off. I was depressed. I put another one on and left off the custom 2016. Sanding made it look cloudy even with buffing. I didn't spend enough time on it. So I sprayed a light coat of nitro and waited three days. The decal was dirty looking and the edges were visible.

So about 2 weeks ago I sprayed a fairly heavy coat of nitro and let it sit for 4 days and repeated X3. No sanding. Second time it was cloudy and milky looking (it was wet outside) and I was despondent thinking "Oh well, I'll wait until the next screaming deal and start over). I checked this morning and it looks perfect! The decal is blending in nicely. The edges are disappearing. The lacquer cleared up and I am ecstatic.

In spite of the fact that I took missteps, The ship righted itself. Nitro is very forgiving! I'll take some photos tonight.

 

[Ace Flibble]

Yup, nitro re-melts as you spray more layers, so even if one coat goes a little wrong, usually leaving it for 24 hours or spraying another coat fixes everything.

But yeah, you do need to spray many more coats before you can even think about sanding. A few mist coats is never enough. I typically do 2 mist coats and 6 normal coats before I begin sanding, and I start that with 800 grit wet & dry paper (used dry) for large flat surfaces (backs of guitars, flattops) and 1000 for any areas where the finish tends to be thinner (sides, corners, carved tops, necks). Then I spray one more coat, give it a full 48 ours, then sand to the next grade, i.e. 800 > 1000, or 1000 > 1200. Another coat, go up a grade again. After sanding with 1500, I do 2 mist coats, and go straight to 2000 paper. 2 more mist coats, then I leave it for a week, then 2000 paper again, followed by 2 weeks rest before burnishing cream.

Even for something as small as a decal on a headstock, I wouldn't try to rush things any quicker. Nitro doesn't like it when you try to cut corners!

 

[ptirman]

Thanks, I am going to do just that. The remelting part has just been amazing. I am going to wait and do a couple more layers as you suggested then sand.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

I've had my share of disasters that just miraculously seemed to pull themselves out of the muck; glad to hear that it ended favorably!

 

[ptirman]

Here they are. You can still see the edge of the decal when the light is right so I have to apply more but I am very pleased. En face it looks really great. On the double photo, the spots and "satin" look are light reflection last night. It is very clear and glossy.

I asked Warmoth to please choose a figured piece of walnut for the neck. They did. It is almost a psychedelic melting plastic look. Love it.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

They look great! That walnut is unbelievable!

 

[ptirman]

I finished putting together the telecaster. It ended up being less is more as far as the build. I used the Walnut/Canary neck and decided not to use the pick guard or the ash tray bridge plate. I wanted light and that's what I have. Plays like a dream. Lacquer finish on the headstock face isn't perfect but it's good.
Sonic blue Tele with Twisted Tele/Broadcaster pickups and a 4 position switch. My cat Lily decided to get in on the action. Color is just a bit off on the second photo.

 

[bagman67]

Very nice work.  I applaud the less-is-more approach you took here.

 

[Glimmer]

Damn that's pretty! Love the color and overall look.Very nice work.