Bass rig questions

[tfarny]

This is all hypothetical at this point - I'm exploring my options for a gig-worthy (little club) bass rig. We'll see if the band actually comes together but if so I'll need more watts than I got, and I'm not wanting to invest in an 8x10 ampeg stack and lug it up and down my stairs.

Bass players, your thoughts:

1) one of those newer 2x10 250 / 300 watt combos by ampeg, markbass, etc.. They weigh like 50 lb and are supposed to put out some good volume.
2) a big guitar tube amp, that I could use for both instruments if I need to switch on stage. For instance, a Ceriatone Overtone 100 special (4 x 6L6, 100 watts Dumble clone) or a 5E8A clone into a quality 2x12 cab, maybe with G12Ms or similar. Obviously heavy as hell but I'm not about to give up guitar playing, and a killer amp would be great to own. Love the recorded tones on both of those amps. Could end up doing some guitar work as well as bass, and one big amp > two.
3. Just emulation - do bassists just plug a multi-effects into the house PA these days? I haven't seen it and obviously the PA would need to put out some wattage, but that sure would be an easy option.

Never owned a bass amp, and my bass through my toneport always sounds farty and lame no matter the setting. When I've plugged it into a real rig I love its tone though.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I have never heard a bass sound all that good out of a guitar rig.  Different speakers and tone stack in general.  That doesn't mean it can't be done, but I tend to separate and compartmentalize the two rigs.  I have not looked at the combo amps, but I have wanted to get an Avatar bass speaker cab for a while.  They have a 2 x 10 T box for a reasonable price, nice speakers (A buddy has a 4 x 10 one and it sounds wonderful) and it can handle a large wattage range.  After that, I would get a hybrid head for it, I see them roll by on Craigslist fairly often.  You can also get them in the dent and scratch sales a lot of the time.  Finally, I'd get a dolly/cart hybrid thing to move all of it with out killing myself.  I grabbed one of those from Harbor Freight, not the best, but it works for that job.

That being said, it also helps to "Find your Brand."  I happen to like Ampeg's sound, while my buddy is a G & K discipile.  I am sure you can find a combo to do the trick, I just find I like to mix and match a lot.  Good luck
Patrick

 

[-CB-]

I can only offer my own experience - from the old (ancient) skool perspective.

The best damn bass rig I ever heard, before I knew anything... was Fender Dual Showman head into two of the "larger" 2x15 JBL equipped cabinets.  Fender made for a short time, a larger 2x15 that was taller and deeper than what they eventually settled on.  Those are boooyah nice.  The same guy showed up with TWO Fender Dual Showmans and FOUR of the 2x15 cabinets at another gig (a battle of the bands finale thing).  It gave up nothing to the next band who thought they were hot stuff with an SVT and four 8x10 cabinets.  The Fender was a better rig, and it was a guitar amp.

I've used my Showman head (same as Dual Showman but with different impedance output), and even Bandmaster for bass.  Both are fantastic.  The Bandmaster has 2x12 "Blackface Bassman size" cabinet with Oxfords in it.  My Twin Reverb also does bass really well - with the 2x12 EV-FORCE.  Those speakers go down to like 40 or 45hz... very low, so even 5 string players can use them.  Of course none of that stuff is made any longer, nor has it been made for 30-40  years depending on the model.  Scary - because it still works GREAT, with only routine maintenance.

The new amps have compression built in.  There was one series of Blackface Bassman that attempted this in a way - by giving negative feedback within the preamp circuit.  It was designed to clean things up - and it did, but wasn't meant for compression as is used by modern players.

So, yah, I'm in the "guitar amps do wonders for your bass" crowd.

FWIW, the Fender circuits back then were all pretty much the same, with the differences being the power and output transformers, power and bias supply, and minor capacitor changes to suit the cabinet, speakers or guitar vs bass.  The bass amps had a different voice, which could be refit back to "guitar" voice in about 15 minutes by a good mechanic.  The bass amps also had HUGE output iron, but seemingly it was Leo's way of doing huge overkill.  He was trying to eliminate saturation in the transformer... and he did that and then some.  Big amps like the Twin and Showman and 100w Bassman all shared the same iron (or lineage of iron depending on the impedance).

What this boils down to is... if you find a cheap "undesirable" Fender tube bass head, it can be voiced to work perfectomundo - just by changing a few capacitor values (easy).

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I agree the most with P from D's statement about finding your brand.  Ampeg and GK have very different sounds, and both are good sounds.  The Markbass stuff I've played, being small and light is it's biggest advantage.  I've never heard a comment about the sound of a Markbass other than, "That came from that?"  More a testament to their size to volume ratio.  Markbass and Accugroove are studio-monitor quality type cabs.  That is, they are very articulate and they show what is there.  Whereas Ampeg, Mesa, and Marshall cabs all have a "sound," transparency is Markbass's sound, IMO.

Markbass, GK, Carvin, and many others are getting into the "head under 5 lbs" trend.  Couple that with the lighweight Neo-whatever speakers, bass rigs are getting lighter.  Don't know if that's better though.

 

[jackthehack]

+1 to CB's comments on older Fender Bassman/Dusl Showman/Bandmaster heads/amps working for both bass and guitar.

My "house bass amp" is an old ('79 I think) Fender 75 combo with 1x15" speaker; got it for nothing at a thrift shop and stuck an Eminence Big Ben 15" speaker in it.  Clean channel works great for bass when EQ'ed properly, and it has plenty of "crunch" for guitar.

These aren't as sexy as older black/silver face Fender amps and tun up on eBay/Craigslist once in a while for cheap...

 

[OzziePete]

I don't play bass guitar enough to profess to know enough about on stage & recording amps etc. but just I popped my head into my local music retailer & a conversation with the sales guy got around DI Boxes and/or Amp modellers vs. the real ones.

We got onto the subject of basses, and he showed me a Sansamp Bass Driver DI which he was proud to tell me, retailed for $549   (That's Australian dollars folks). Stunned me with the price more than anything else, I was expecting $250 -300 as a price in a store. He plugged it into some very average gear and showed how it made the tone that much better, couldn't argue with that.

Today I got on the net and bought the same item from the US ( a retailer had an International Shipping option) & on conversion to my credit card, comes out at AUS$ 277. Just have to wait 7 -14 days for it to come here.... :icon_thumright:  :icon_biggrin:

Years ago, a friend of mine took up the bass and he was lugging some very heavy gear around - noticeably heavier than the usual guitar gear I was used to heaving.

I can't help think that something like a 15" speaker in a decent quality box, one of these Sansamp DIs and a smallish 60 -100 watt power amp might do the trick in smaller environments?

You might want to wait and see what the guitar players and/or electric keyboardists are using for their power amps though, so you don't go in underpowered. I was told by my bass player mate (probably half jokingly) that bass players need 3 times the wattage of guitar players to be evenly heard ?! Something about the bass frequencies requiring more physical power to push the sound around?

 

[MUYFUE]

I was going to contribue, but I'd just be a drop in the ocean.
:doh:
Love this board!

 

[jimh]

tfarny

This thread may or may not be of interest to you .
http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=5528.0

For the record, my mate (Sam) that I talk about in that thread, recently ditched his Trace Elliot amp for a Ashdown Little Giant head, and an Eden Nemesis 2x10 Cab.
The rig is tiny, the amp head fits in the front pocket on his Warwick gigbag, and the Eden cab is light as a feather, but punchy as hell due to the neodymium magnets on the speakers
and not expensive either (relative, I know)

http://www.ashdownmusic.com/bass/detail.asp?ID=212
http://www.eden-electronics.com/products/enseries/cabs/en210xst.aspx

Hope it helps

Cheers

Jim

 

[tfarny]

Thanks a lot guys. Just back from a GC manhattan safari. Played the small-but-loud combos and little stacks. Ampeg 200w 2x10 had good sounds and nice EQing, but not much volume at all. Markbass was schockingly portable and good sounding for the size and weight. the 1x12 cube, smaller than my avatar 1x12 guitar cab, put out some serious sound but was nearly a grand. They had a 1x15 too that was great but a bit pricey.
My favorite was actually an 'acoustic' brand 200w head 1x15 stack on sale for just $400. Not the most portable but hugely loud, just that classic R&B / The Band kind of sound. I think I'm a sucker for 15" big bottom tone over the crisper but more modern 2x10 / tweeter setups. I used a USA jazz bass for all the playing.
Mr Funka-dood was playing with the GK stuff the whole time, we exchanged many a stinkeye glance at each other, so I never got to try those out but I was def. turned off by the sound he was getting.

Thanks for all the help, if all goes well I'll be cruising craiglist pretty hard this week (for musical equipement!).

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I go to Blues Jams on occasion.  On one trip, the bass player showed up late, drums and guitars were mic'd.  He just set up his Hartke head and Eden 210 cab and didn't run a direct out.  That thing filled the room.

You already know this, but the biggest thing with bass rigs to be heard is not volume, but finding the right frequency.  Fill up the space without more watts.

 

[AprioriMark]

I'm a SWR convert (having played dozens if not hundreds of gigs each on those, Hartke, Ampeg and GK).  I'm currently using an older Bass 350 with one (or more) of the following cabs: 4x8, 4x10, 2x12, 1x15, 1x18.  It depends on the venue.  I have found that SWR has a wonderful midrange "warmth" that I just love.  I've owned several of their offerings, though I don't know the current state of the company.

Some things I've learned:
1) Smaller is better.  If you're playing a gig big enough that you feel like you need a tower, the sound system darn well better be making up the difference.  I've been using a lower watt amp and speakers for a long time and never regretted it.  The days of monster amps and cabs are simply over.  Just make sure it *sounds* how you want it to, and that it can drown out a drummer playing acoustically if necessary.  I've found that two of the above cabs and 350 watts can do that.  Everything else should be the soundperson's problem.
2) Have a good DI out on your amp AND a DI box with you. 
3) Even though pure DI is possible, no one will ever convince me not to have at least a small cab (4x8 comes with me everywhere) with me at every gig.
4) Less is more, but bring options.  While I personally believe in "one gig, one bass,"  I always carry a couple extra wireless units, two extra 20' cords, two 6' cords, a distortion pedal, an EQ pedal (as a boost), 9v batteries, ear plugs, a SM58 and a 25' cord, screwdrivers, allen wrenches, pliers, gaffer's tape, duct tape and some gum in an old camera case.  That's aside from my normal gear, and it almost always comes in handy.

-Mark

 

[tfarny]

On craigslist I see an Eden "World Tour" 400W tube pre head and Eden 4x10 ported cab for $700 total. That head has been discontinued but the higher wattage versions are nearing 2k territyory - looks like good pro equipment and gets good reviews (no I'm not counting Harmony Central).
Ayayaye, we'll see.

 

[AprioriMark]

I will say that I liked Eden gear as well.  I don't think you'd go wrong with that as your setup.

-Mark

 

[MUYFUE]

+1 on Eden. I borrowed a 4X10 to record with and it was the best bass sound i've had.
Sad to give it back.