Any plans/possibilities for sustainable wood topped guitars?

[crimethink]

What are the sonic properties of bamboo and cork and could there be a laminate top made from either material?

I'd get one...

 

[dbw]

...troll? :icon_scratch:

 

[kboman]

It's a legitimate question I think: the thought has struck me too. There are sustainable sources of african mahogany/sapele and indian rosewood that I know of. I'd never use south american wood in a guitar: it's just too unclear what is ok wood and what is not.

Bamboo is used in some Sticks and apparently sounds great, I'm very interested in using a bamboo guitar neck at some point. Cork trees on the other hand are protected afaik and the bark is way too soft to be musically useful as a guitar top. Or so I imagine

Edit: did a search on YT and found this guy in Japan who builds acoustic guitars out of bamboo. Cool!

 

[crimethink]

...troll? :icon_scratch:

This "troll" is waiting on the body pictured below plus a Canary neck and other parts to arrive via UPS:

While I'm fully aware of the restriction of free speech on this forum as it pertains to profanity, politics, et al I didn't see anything expressed or implied in the forum's rules which prohibits someone from asking a legitimate question and seeing as the subject of this thread is germane to "Suggestion Box" I see no reason to be accused baselessly of sowing discord or other forum malicious intentions.

Thanks for your wonderful hospitality BTW.

 

[crimethink]

It's a legitimate question I think: the thought has struck me too. There are sustainable sources of african mahogany/sapele and indian rosewood that I know of. I'd never use south american wood in a guitar: it's just too unclear what is ok wood and what is not.

Bamboo is used in some Sticks and apparently sounds great, I'm very interested in using a bamboo guitar neck at some point. Cork trees on the other hand are protected afaik and the bark is way too soft to be musically useful as a guitar top. Or so I imagine

Edit: did a search on YT and found this guy in Japan who builds acoustic guitars out of bamboo. Cool!

Thank you for your post, sir.

I was thinking about a bamboo top yesterday while taking cuttings of some Golden Bamboo I have growing - I have 3 varieties of live bamboo growing as well as bamboo flooring and some bamboo furniture. I made a table top from that fossilized strained or "tiger" bamboo and it's GORGEOUS and I was thinking that stuff would make a gorgeous top... even the bamboo plywood is pretty enough to make a smooth top... I don't know how it would take various finishes though.

Cork is gorgeous and very sustainable but I too doubt it could be made to be solid enough for a top. The cork tiles you can buy at Lumber Liquidators is durable enough for high traffic areas, which I'm sure is more wear than a guitar top, but again I don't know enough about building a body to rule one way or the other... hence my asking.

I buy the acoustic guy uses Moso Bamboo.

 

[Wyliee]

What are the sonic properties of bamboo and cork and could there be a laminate top made from either material?

I'd get one...

I don't know of the sonic properties, but I doubt cork would work for a top.  As far as bamboo, I'd want to look at the endgrain and see how much sealer would be necessary.

An 1/8" top wouldn't have significant impact on the overal tone of the body, regardless.  Pick your lamtop for looks.

 

[crimethink]

What are the sonic properties of bamboo and cork and could there be a laminate top made from either material?

I'd get one...

I don't know of the sonic properties, but I doubt cork would work for a top.  As far as bamboo, I'd want to look at the endgrain and see how much sealer would be necessary.

An 1/8" top wouldn't have significant impact on the overal tone of the body, regardless.  Pick your lamtop for looks.

I wondering if the end grain couldn't be concealed by some sort of binding... either natural or synthetic. A carved top might be weird but at the same time gradually exposing the end grain in the carving might actually look quite pimp... especially if the finish began "bursting" real hard at the transition point. *drool*

I don't have the words to describe how much I'd love to intern at Warmoth's shop and get to see how these things are made. Especially the finishes.... my, my, my what art I could create refinishing my kitchen cabinets and building furniture pieces if I had half the skills the Warmoth staff has.

 

[dbw]

...troll? :icon_scratch:

This "troll" is waiting on the body pictured below plus a Canary neck and other parts to arrive via UPS:

While I'm fully aware of the restriction of free speech on this forum as it pertains to profanity, politics, et al I didn't see anything expressed or implied in the forum's rules which prohibits someone from asking a legitimate question and seeing as the subject of this thread is germane to "Suggestion Box" I see no reason to be accused baselessly of sowing discord or other forum malicious intentions.

Thanks for your wonderful hospitality BTW.

No need to get so snippy.  This still makes no sense.  First of all, cork is a dumb idea for both aesthetic and functional reasons.  Second, 95% (or so) of the wood in a guitar is in the neck, fingerboard, and body.  So you'd have a veneer of sustainable material and the rest of the guitar would be normal hardwood?  That kinda seems to miss the point.  Gives you an ugly guitar while having almost the same environmental impact.

In my opinion you should just buy a wooden guitar like everyone else.  Guitars are extremely durable goods... it's not like you go through one a week.  The percentage of logging that goes toward guitar construction must be laughably small, so if you want to worry about sustainability, do something that will actually have an impact.

Besides, (and I'm not an environmentalist so forgive me if this is a dumb question) what's so non-sustainable about trees?  They still grow out of the ground, last time I checked...  :icon_scratch:

 

[nathan a]

Hey there crimethink (as in crimethinc? if so, I approve)

Bamboo definitely has guitar potential. This is something I am really interested in. Yamaha has since discontinued its FGB1 bamboo acoustics, but last year First Act released the Bambusa, a cheap bamboo electric.

There is a fellow in Japan building acoustic guitars with bamboo tops, backs, and sides, with maple necks. The website is mostly in Japanese, but still worth a peek. I don't really like his aesthetics much, that that is something luthiers can work with.
http://www.geocities.jp/bgcdj201/models.html

Here's a video of one of his bamboo guitars being played. Sorta lousy sound quality thanks to the videocam mic, but you get the idea. It can be done!!!

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFg-6HB220o&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[kboman]

Besides, (and I'm not an environmentalist so forgive me if this is a dumb question) what's so non-sustainable about trees?  They still grow out of the ground, last time I checked...  :icon_scratch:

Basically, there is more de-forestation going on than re-forestation (I may be inventing these words).

I'm not an expert on this subject, but this is my understanding:
Many of the "exotic" species of tree come from rain forests. These forests take a long time to grow and only have a thin layer of soil (compared to a forest in a temperate climate). When the slugfest that is the modern timber industry arrives, the trees are cut down and moved away - obviously - and their biomass removed from the location: thus there is no material for future soil, and no new forest grows. This does not only apply to "exotic" woods btw.
There are tree planting projects, but the logging - both legal and in many cases illegal - is simply on a different scale.

Yes trees grow out of the ground, but it takes them decades. Cutting them down is done in a matter of seconds these days.

 

[AToE]

I have certain woods I stay away from, ebony is one of them (sadly... I love ebony. I will buy used instruments with ebony though).

The other problem is that a lot of guitars focus on old growth woods (ebony, cedar, spruce mainly, though there may be others), trees that are hundreds of years old and we are running out rapidly, especially of ebony. A surprising amount of the old growth trees cut are for instruments.

Cork I'd think would be useless, much too soft to resonate in our hearing range. Bamboo though I would assume would be like a super-maple or ebony type tone, I'd kill for a laminate bamboo neck.

The instrument building industry is taking baby steps towards being responsible with it's wood consumption, but I doubt it will make any major changes in time to save many species from near-extinction. I don't blame any particual manufacturers or consumers, it's an industry-wide problem.

 

[dbw]

Makes sense, but there are plenty of non-exotic options without resorting to cork... flame maple is a classic  :icon_thumright:

 

[AToE]

Makes sense, but there are plenty of non-exotic options without resorting to cork... flame maple is a classic  :icon_thumright:

We actually have a problem where I live with tree poachers cutting down giant trees just to get at the flamed wood near the bottom, then leaving the rest to rot.

Not that I think most FM is poached or anything though!

I'd still love a bamboo neck, I tried hunting down bamboo drumsticks for the music retailer I work for, no one makes them though. ???

 

[crimethink]

Hey there crimethink (as in crimethinc? if so, I approve)

I got it where they got it... from George Orwell's 1984... but I part with them on many points especially representative democracy... it's who is actually represented as to where I see their point. My philosophy isn't any different than the one Lars Ulrich was sharing on The Rachel Maddow Show this week. lol

Bamboo definitely has guitar potential. This is something I am really interested in. Yamaha has since discontinued its FGB1 bamboo acoustics, but last year First Act released the Bambusa, a cheap bamboo electric.

There is a fellow in Japan building acoustic guitars with bamboo tops, backs, and sides, with maple necks. The website is mostly in Japanese, but still worth a peek. I don't really like his aesthetics much, that that is something luthiers can work with.
http://www.geocities.jp/bgcdj201/models.html

Here's a video of one of his bamboo guitars being played. Sorta lousy sound quality thanks to the videocam mic, but you get the idea. It can be done!!!

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFg-6HB220o&feature=related[/youtube]

:headbang: :hello2: :headbang1: Cool! I have a friend in Tokoyo and one in Fukuoka who can read that site so I may have to ask them what it says. Thanks for the link!

 

[crimethink]

Besides, (and I'm not an environmentalist so forgive me if this is a dumb question) what's so non-sustainable about trees?  They still grow out of the ground, last time I checked...  :icon_scratch:

Basically, there is more de-forestation going on than re-forestation (I may be inventing these words).

I'm not an expert on this subject, but this is my understanding:
Many of the "exotic" species of tree come from rain forests. These forests take a long time to grow and only have a thin layer of soil (compared to a forest in a temperate climate). When the slugfest that is the modern timber industry arrives, the trees are cut down and moved away - obviously - and their biomass removed from the location: thus there is no material for future soil, and no new forest grows. This does not only apply to "exotic" woods btw.
There are tree planting projects, but the logging - both legal and in many cases illegal - is simply on a different scale.

No new forest grows which is tragic in and of itself but it also means the loss of wildlife habitat at a time species are disappearing at alarming rates as well as the loss of those trees converting the abundance of CO2 we have into oxygen which is aiding in climate change. Some companies only use FSC woods from managed forests sort of how jewelers "supposedly" don't buy African blood diamonds anymore. The problem is the governments charged with enforcing their logging laws don't and won't due to corruption and as with any illicit trades the proceeds tend to go towards things we might not approve of supporting.

Yes trees grow out of the ground, but it takes them decades. Cutting them down is done in a matter of seconds these days.

Exactly and where bamboo is concerned, for example as to why it is deemed "sustainable", I had new shoots come up in March and with a little nitrogen and water they're about 9 feet tall and 2" thick today, April 29th, and I don't have any of the BIG varieties because I doubt my city nor my HOA would allow me to have 70' tall bamboo plants as is the case with Moso and Japanese Timber bamboo among other larger varieties. No hardwood could do that even if trees had steroids. Scientifically, bamboo is actually a grass but when it comes to construction materials it is as good as hardwoods and pine hence its use for thousands of years in construction.

Growers are encouraged to cut bamboo to the ground about as often as you're supposed to do with raspberries. With bamboo you cut the older smaller culms out to make room for the new culms which will be taller and thicker... particularly if you're using a root barrier as I am to confine them to a certain area for a privacy screen. Bamboo is one of the coolest plants to grow because it almost grows as you watch! lol

 

[nathan a]

On a related note: I actually just sent W an email inquiring about where they source their woods, whether I can have confidence that I am not funding unethical logging and trade practices, etc. Here is the response I got from Spike:

"We only buy our products from long time, reputable suppliers that follow strict legal guidelines.
We choose our lumber from the supplier based on cellular density, tone, and grain.
Other than that we have no knowledge on origin as that is handled long before we could even get the product."

 

[AToE]

That's about all you could really expect from a manufacturer like W, it'd be extremely difficult to actually do the detective work to find out if the wood is poached or not, even if you were the first middleman, not the last.

The problem too though is that a lot of the endangered stuff isn't illigal anyways, because they don't know exactly how much is left and the countries that it grows in simply need the money and don't have the option to make it illigal. Some countries where the trees grow change governments too fast to even attempt a real census of how many trees are left.

It's a really sticky grey area a lot of the time as to whether or not it's ethical. I don't blame anyone who decides to buy this stuff though, can't feel bad about everything you do in your life... plus I am planning an all-wenge guitar, not too sure of how that species is doing, so I certainly won't cast the first stone.

 

[crimethink]

I have certain woods I stay away from, ebony is one of them (sadly... I love ebony. I will buy used instruments with ebony though).

The other problem is that a lot of guitars focus on old growth woods (ebony, cedar, spruce mainly, though there may be others), trees that are hundreds of years old and we are running out rapidly, especially of ebony. A surprising amount of the old growth trees cut are for instruments.

Cork I'd think would be useless, much too soft to resonate in our hearing range. Bamboo though I would assume would be like a super-maple or ebony type tone, I'd kill for a laminate bamboo neck.

The instrument building industry is taking baby steps towards being responsible with it's wood consumption, but I doubt it will make any major changes in time to save many species from near-extinction. I don't blame any particual manufacturers or consumers, it's an industry-wide problem.

I concur on all points.

Really, society is just now awakening to conservation because this is where "tree hugger", as slander, came from. Industry and collective consumers will move at the pace society demands which society will have to fight the establishment to do so as it has been for decades to even get us to this point. Had it been more than just "tree huggers" calling for conservation 40 years ago we'd have a supply of 40-year old reforested trees to maintain our standard of living... as it pertains to building instruments. We're already seeing Koa becoming scarce and the prices are skyrocketing and in due time these other species will go up in price as well as we're consuming faster than the trees can grow.

 

[dNA]

Besides, (and I'm not an environmentalist so forgive me if this is a dumb question) what's so non-sustainable about trees?  They still grow out of the ground, last time I checked...  :icon_scratch:

are you serious?
That's like the argument that water is everywhere, therefore water conservation is completely unnecessary.

At least have something constructive to say before you try and deride somebody for exploring other possibilities.


You know one problem is that a lot of people who are trying to be conscientious consumers aren't very well educated. And just because a tree is North American does not equal sustainability, just as exotic does not equal rare. Does anybody here know ANYTHING about the growing and cutting practices of american hard maple? I'd love to learn more. Originally I was trying to stay away from exotics when I started thinking about my first build, but at this point I'm realizing I want to do a lot more homework before I settle on anything.


to all you guys doing research and trying out new things, i commend you. And definitely keep sharing your findings with everyone here  ccasion14:

 

[-CB-]

Besides, (and I'm not an environmentalist so forgive me if this is a dumb question) what's so non-sustainable about trees?  They still grow out of the ground, last time I checked...  :icon_scratch:

Heck yes they do!  Plant 'em, nourish them, they grow. Then ya crank up Mr. Chainsaw, and smack'em down to the dirt.  Trees are sustainable, no issue there.  Of course if you want to hug the old ones and preserve them because they're old... thats your right.  We grow maple, in the northeast for maple sap products and for wood.  When you say - lets conserve - what you're really saying is that it takes too long to renew, and thus the price is gonna go through the ceiling unless somebody can speed up the process that God's nature itself dictates.

I happen to be in the water management business.  Let me assuredly tell you - there is no shortage of water!  Just shortages of water in places its needed, and in a form that we want to use.  There is no such thing as the conservation of water, only the management of it.

Ya wanna use cork for a body... go right ahead.  I prefer cork freshly removed from previously unopened old wine bottles.