Another Grain Raise with just Water before Dye

[s1player]

Okay - I made a small mistake on my sanding of my maple top-alder back semi hollow. Due to ignorance, I did the following:

1. Received a CNC body that needed final finish sanding.
2. I raised the grain by spraying with water (and it raised seemingly quite a lot).
3. let dry 24+ hours
4. Did first round of sanding to 320, in preparation for first pass water-based dyeing of the wood.

However, on further reading, I have read that one should first do the first round of finish sanding BEFORE raising the grain with water (I did the opposite). But, some folks don't seem to raise the grain at all and just let the first coat of water based dye do the grain raising.

My question - having raised the grain and then done first finish sand to 320 - do you folks recommend raising the grain again and then resanding before putting on the first round of dye?

Or, should I just do my first round of dye and then do some sanding if further grain is raised?

Have a feeling this is a judgment call - but I would appreciate input.

 

[bagman67]

I wouldn't worry about it.  You're ready to apply dye right now, unless you have masking to do first.


You should wet the surface thoroughly before you apply the dye anyway so you don't end up with witness marks - it will flow and cover more uniformly.  So your grain will raise some, despite your round of sanding, just as a consequence of applying the water and the dye.  The one concern might be whether you've sanded it too smooth for the dye to really take, but at 320 grit I doubt whether that's the case.

 

[dmraco]

I usually wet and sand then dye.  Depending what I am doing, I will use water or alcohol.  If I am dying with the plan to sand back, I use water because it raises the grain and gets the dye in all the right places.  If I am applying a final coat, I use alcohol because it will not raise grain like water and you will not have to sand before clear.

If you are spraying the dye, different process all together.

 

[s1player]

Thanks Bagman. I did the same sanding to 320 on my test piece of flame maple - which was very similar in flame and grain pattern to my maple top. And, the rubbed on water-based transtint dye worked just fine. but, in the future perhaps I will just sand to 220 before dying. I read conflicting information before I started on whether to go to 320 or 220 - so I went with 320. We will see how it works out.

DMRACO - thanks for the your feedback as well.

I wouldn't worry about it.  You're ready to apply dye right now, unless you have masking to do first.


You should wet the surface thoroughly before you apply the dye anyway so you don't end up with witness marks - it will flow and cover more uniformly.  So your grain will raise some, despite your round of sanding, just as a consequence of applying the water and the dye.  The one concern might be whether you've sanded it too smooth for the dye to really take, but at 320 grit I doubt whether that's the case.

 

[stubhead]

I'm not sure there will be any discernible difference in the end product, assuming you're going to keep fiddling with it until it's looking right to you. The big question is, are you going for a shiny-smooth “factory” glossy look or leaving it a bit more woody (I can admire the mirror-finished from afar, but I don't like the way they feel. Doggone “earthy” hippie-think still lurks & perks deep within....) I don't think there's much of anything you can do so WRONG that it'll cause all the other guys on the playground to say “AW-HAW! AW-HAW!  You shoulda raised the grain the OTHER way! You're screwed! AW-HAW!” And your gurlfriend will leave you and do the nasty with your worst enemy (that she wouldn't do with you) and you'll get all slamdunked morose and become a heroin addict and live in alleys and when you turn blue for the last time and the EMT's are packing you up for the trip to the emergency room - the very LAST one - all you can say is “My grain done got RAISED wrong. Boo Hoo Hoober snuffle etc.!” 

So no, I think it will work out just fine. Or YES? I think it will work out just fine or:

E: (all of the above).

Smartypants aside, it's GOOD that you're concerned about every last little detail. That's what makes things come out right, and good questions elicit good answers here. Go slow, make sure you understand why you're doing what you're doing, don't work on it if you're pissed off at it or tired or trying to force something that would work better with more info... here's the part (cue the music) where I try to crawl through these little wires and FORCE people to buy Dan Erlewine's “Complete Guitar Repair” because it touches on every single thing you need to know - a $24 book that can or may save you a few thousand dollars (at least)  over the long run. It's great for figuring out what you don't know (yet) which helps a great deal with the organization of your processes.

At the very least, you'll be able to out-vocabulate the “guitar tech” at your local music store and figure out if he's got his head stuck up his... hat! Yeah, his hat... guitar techs make money by dicking with guitars  - no dickie=no money. Easy to see why they ALWAYS have to do something.There have been a few threads here lately about guitars that went to one tech and didn't get cured, then to another tech that didn't cure it then to ANOTHER... it occurred to me that if you can dig through the fluff*, you'll probably get as good advice here as anywhere else on the planet. We got Finishees (tonar), Electronicures (Line6), Frettians (Cagey), I'm interested in work procedures that actually make it harder to screw up than to do it right... and looking through the Stew-Mac catalog then finding the same tools or better for ¼ the cost, or MAKING YOUR OWN for 1/17th the cost.

Regarding finishes, there are about five (?) categories that will all work fine, the bigger problem is when people, really anxious to GET IT RIGHT, start trying to do all five at once. “I'm gonna finish the CRAP outta this thing...”

*(I didn't do it! Besides, everybody else was doing it first! They MADE me do it! Even though I didn't!) :headbang1:

 

[s1player]

Well - I applied 2 very heavy coats of cordovan dye and let dry. It ended up raising the grain - but only slightly. I have a feeling that the grain might have been raised whether I de-whiskered first or not.

I hope that the grain is not raised every time dye is put on. I am not sure how I will ever get a clear ready dye job if I have to sand after each pass of dye.

 

[Cagey]

The fuzz will stop coming up, but even if it doesn't, it'll diminish to the point where you're ok to start applying sanding sealer, a wash coat, or whatever finish you want to end up with. You're going to sand between those coats, and that'll be the end of the fuzz.

It's a slow, laborious process, but the results will be great. Just be patient.

 

[s1player]

The fuzz will stop coming up, but even if it doesn't, it'll diminish to the point where you're ok to start applying sanding sealer, a wash coat, or whatever finish you want to end up with. You're going to sand between those coats, and that'll be the end of the fuzz.

It's a slow, laborious process, but the results will be great. Just be patient.

CAGEY - thanks again for the incredible advice and support you have provided. It has been and continues to be very valuable. Thank you.

It's funny - my test flame maple board is extremely smooth and didn't really raise grain at all with additional dye passes.

In comparison the guitar - while the grain was definitely raised - I found after sanding that it really wasn't that much. Literally, a couple scuffs with 320 and it was gone. So, it felt like more raised - but it wasn't any work at all to knock it down.

Finished second pass at dark cordovan this morning. It's dry now and the grain may have raised, but really only slightly. But, not enough to even sand down on the back Alder.

Time to do the "sand back, grain pop" on the flame maple top tomorrow. Test board came out great - time to do the real thing.

 

[stubhead]

It's hard to imagine that grain will have anything left to rise with past four, five wettings, so if the last few are also carrying some dye along there's not enough difference to be noticeable. Most final finishes really do need a bit of roughness to "grab" onto anyways - 320 better than 400, see "burnishing"  - you can actually polish wood too smooth. Wood and dyes and finishes are actually pretty forgiving and repairable, as long as you avoid serious incompatibilities like non-curing oils or wax too early on.