7/8 body and brightness

[wayfaerer]

Hi, first post. For those of you with the Fender style 7/8ths bodies and the 24.75 in 24 fret neck, have you noticed the shorter scale length impacting your tone at all?

I'm really liking the 7/8 option but am concerned the shorter scale length would impact that bell like Fender tone. Not sure if I should just go for it anyways or stick with full size.

 

[NonsenseTele]

Yes, it will impact...

98% of guitar tone is Pickups + Amplifier + scale lenght... if you get the same pickup with a short scale, it will not sound the same.
It will sound close, but not exactly... If you're 100% set on Fender tone, perhaps the shorter scale isn't for you...
I'd search on Youtube if there is any comparison of short scale and long scale on electric guitars, I know you have from acoustic OM and 000 (same body shape, but 25.34" x 24.9")

 

[lollerskates]

Yes, it will impact...

98% of guitar tone is Pickups + Amplifier + scale lenght... if you get the same pickup with a short scale, it will not sound the same.
It will sound close, but not exactly... If you're 100% set on Fender tone, perhaps the shorter scale isn't for you...
I'd search on Youtube if there is any comparison of short scale and long scale on electric guitars, I know you have from acoustic OM and 000 (same body shape, but 25.34" x 24.9")

You do realize this didn't answer his question, at all right?

Can anyone who actually has a 24.75" guitar with the same pickups and electronic configuration as a 25.5" guitar speak to the comparison in tone?  Everyone always says that longer scale guitars are brighter.  Do you think a Bass sounds brighter than a guitar?  I guess it might if you tried to string it with guitar strings, I also don't know that I'd call that tone "bright".

As far as I know, no one has ever put their money where their mouth is and done an A/B test like that, same pickups, same types of guitar, Les Paul v LP, Strat v S, etc; and tried comparing the scale lengths.  Everyone makes this claim anecdotally by simply saying "well, more tension = brighter". 

I'd be willing to put my bank account on 99% of listeners, musicians, guitarists, engineers, included.  Would not be able to tell a "brightness" difference from a LP in 24.75" with a SD 59 in the neck, versus a LP in 25.5" with a SD 59 in the neck.  The sound differences between the bridge and neck blended together?  Maybe.  Blended together and coil tapped?  Definitely.

But I would be even more willing to bet that the Frequency spectrum analysis of such a test would show the same thing, barely ANY difference at all between a 24.75" SD 59 Neck vs a 25.5" SD 59 Neck in a LP.

Sound?  Probably not.  Playability?  Definitely more affected by a shorter length than the tone is.

Changing how the pickups are arranged and routed like Fernando said?  Biggest impact of all.  A strat sounds like a strat because of where Leo put the pickups, reverse wound the middle one, etc.  Not because of it's 25.5" scale length.

 

[wayfaerer]

Ultimately what I'm not sure about is whether using heavier strings can fully (tonally) compensate for the reduced scale length. I realize you could definitely match the string tension this way, but not sure if the tone would also "match". I.e., if you'd get that same bell-like snap.

This is a bigger question, though, that I've seen discussed elsewhere. Just curious if anyone with a 7/8 around here notices whether it sounds less Fendery than full size.

 

[aarontunes]

As far as I know, no one has ever put their money where their mouth is and done an A/B test like that, same pickups, same types of guitar, Les Paul v LP, Strat v S, etc; and tried comparing the scale lengths.  Everyone makes this claim anecdotally by simply saying "well, more tension = brighter".

I've done it many times, and so have lots of others.


I didn't bother do a spectrum analysis of the comparison for the same reason I haven't done it on any of the many other comparison tests and videos I've done: because I don't really care. It's not like I'm trying to get a space shuttle into orbit. I'm also not trying to scientifically prove anything to anybody. Besides, anyone who doesn't want to thoughtfully consider what I have to say is already beyond convincing, no matter what data I show. I've been the recipient of enough YouTube hate to know that that's how it works in the age of the internet.


Besides, a spectrum analysis doesn't really mean diddly squat, anyway, because of all the trouble with the receiving end. You and are going perceive the same sound source slightly differently, because your ears are different (older, younger, more/less sensitive, more/less trained) than mine. Then there's the whole Fletcher-Munson Curve to contend with. Etc, etc, etc. When it comes to evaluating sound, what's true for you may not be true for me.


Judging from your last post, it sounds like you've already made up your mind, and are challenging someone to prove you wrong. Far be it from me to try.


But anecdotally, my experience is that all else being equal, a shorter Gibson®-scale neck will cause a guitar to sound slightly thicker in the low mids than a normal 25-1/2" neck. It's not "less bright". It just has a little extra thickness that I believe comes from the reduced tension of the strings. When picked with equal strength, they will flap around more than strings with higher tension. Maybe a better adjective than "bright" to describe the difference is "tight".


All things being equal, a Fender scale guitar sounds more tight. A Gibson scale sounds less tight. Both can sound equally bright.


Oh....and welcome to the forum!  :icon_thumright:

 

[aarontunes]

Ultimately what I'm not sure about is whether using heavier strings can fully (tonally) compensate for the reduced scale length. I realize you could definitely match the string tension this way, but not sure if the tone would also "match". I.e., if you'd get that same bell-like snap.

This is a bigger question, though, that I've seen discussed elsewhere. Just curious if anyone with a 7/8 around here notices whether it sounds less Fendery than full size.

Hey wayfaerer! Welcome to the forum.


I think a 7/8 guitar is gonna sound plenty snappy. The differences discussed here and elsewhere usually revolve around things that are very subtle. It's mostly of lot of idle guitar players tilting a windmills.


I can tell you from experience that a 7/8 S-Style guitar sounds plenty "Fendery", no matter what gauge of strings you put on it.


Have you seen this video?


[youtube]WLLBquv-OD4[/youtube]

 

[Strat Avenger]

Yes, it will impact...

98% of guitar tone is Pickups + Amplifier + scale lenght... if you get the same pickup with a short scale, it will not sound the same.
It will sound close, but not exactly... If you're 100% set on Fender tone, perhaps the shorter scale isn't for you...
I'd search on Youtube if there is any comparison of short scale and long scale on electric guitars, I know you have from acoustic OM and 000 (same body shape, but 25.34" x 24.9")

While I agree with all this, I think that good single coil (including him canceling) pickups and a Strat style bridge would get you close enough.

 

[wayfaerer]

I've seen (and liked) that video. It's what got me interested in the 7/8 style in the first place. Funny thing is I've never heard a guitar sound less like a Fender than the Tele in the video. :laughing7: I suspect that may be the pickups.

I'm after a Strat style guitar with pickguard and 24 frets. As far as I can tell, that's not possible for a full size Strat. I'm not a big guy, though, and I think I'd probably like the 7/8 guitar in terms of comfort. The pickguard is important because I'd like to be able to change pickup configurations just by buying a new pickguard. Otherwise I would get a Soloist.

So the compromises I'm dealing with are: (1) 7/8 guitar with possibly reduced snappiness, (2) full size Fender style body with only 22 frets, or (3) 24 fret Soloist with no pickguard and make sure I get the pickup types right the first time.

 

[aarontunes]

I've seen (and liked) that video. It's what got me interested in the 7/8 style in the first place. Funny thing is I've never heard a guitar sound less like a Fender than the Tele in the video. :laughing7: I suspect that may be the pickups.

I'm after a Strat style guitar with pickguard and 24 frets. As far as I can tell, that's not possible for a full size Strat. I'm not a big guy, though, and I think I'd probably like the 7/8 guitar in terms of comfort. The pickguard is important because I'd like to be able to change pickup configurations just by buying a new pickguard. Otherwise I would get a Soloist.

So the compromises I'm dealing with are: (1) 7/8 guitar with possibly reduced snappiness, (2) full size Fender style body with only 22 frets, or (3) 24 fret Soloist with no pickguard and make sure I get the pickup types right the first time.

LOL....ya, the pickups in the video are not yer standard Tele pickups.


If I were going for a 24 fret guitar, I would choose the 7/8, for playability alone. The upper fret access of a "native" 24 fret guitar will be better than that of a 24-fret extension neck on a full-size Strat or Soloist body. That would make a bigger difference in my enjoyment of the guitar than any possible, slight difference in "snap", that may or may not even exist.


My $0.02.

 

[Archie Macfarlane]

The tele + gibson scale =some pretty awsome phat tone imo
Maybe get an angled humbucker to get more cranky urkiness and note definition out of it. P rails? :dontknow:

 

[NonsenseTele]

Yes, it will impact...

98% of guitar tone is Pickups + Amplifier + scale lenght... if you get the same pickup with a short scale, it will not sound the same.
It will sound close, but not exactly... If you're 100% set on Fender tone, perhaps the shorter scale isn't for you...
I'd search on Youtube if there is any comparison of short scale and long scale on electric guitars, I know you have from acoustic OM and 000 (same body shape, but 25.34" x 24.9")

While I agree with all this, I think that good single coil (including him canceling) pickups and a Strat style bridge would get you close enough.

Yes, will sound close, as I said... I think close enough that if you play in a band with 2 guitars, bass, drums it wouldn't make much difference...

I totally agree with Aaron about "tight", that is the best definition in my (poor) english for longer scale. Also "snappy", but your "bell" might have the same meaning. I find longer scale more controlled and with a little snap sound and totally dislike it, I like the more loose and "warm" sound a shorter scale have...

But as everyone says: pickups are VERY mandatory on your tone. If you put some vintage strat pickups on it, you will be able to get a close sound to a Fender with the ease to play of short lenght and the 24th fret.

If you're willing to have a 95% to 98% close sound to a Fender, I think you'll enjoy the short scale.
If you need it to be 100%, then you won't.

I hope I've made myself clearer this time

 

[BigSteve22]

I hope I've made myself clearer this time

Fernando, I'm pretty sure your English is a hell of a lot better than any of our Portuguese!  :rock-on:

 

[zebra]

I seem to recall reading that the placement of Strat pickups affect the tone - something about them being located under harmonic nodes or something.  If there's any credence to this, anyone know if this was considered when Warmoth located the pickup routes in the 7/8 strat pick guard? 

That might help OP in his decision making...

 

[Logrinn]

A couple of things from a 24" scale player ...

I seem to recall reading that the placement of Strat pickups affect the tone - something about them being located under harmonic nodes or something...

A harmonic node occurs at different places along a vibrating string. We all know about the harmonics at the 12th and 24 fret of an open string. But fret a note on the 1st fret and those harmonics are now at the 13:th and 25:th fret. So in other words - all pickups are always placed under some harmonic node. It just depends on what node we're talking about.

The "snap" or "brightness" of a note isn't only decided by the scale length, placement of the pickups (and by what kind of pickups) and string gauge.
But it's also where you pick a note. If you anchor your hand at the same spot, let's say by the bridge on a 25,5" scale and also on - in my case - a 24" scale, the pick will be picking the string closer to the bridge relative to the string length on the long scale guitar. And we all know that the closer to the bridge you pick the more "snappy", "trebly", "insert-your-own-description-here" it will be.
So, yes, you might say that a Strat has a more snap or bite or whatever than a shorter scale guitar - but you can easily change the sound by how you pick and how you decide to play your notes.

Lastly - you can get waaaaaaay more difference in tone, snap or lack of snap, bite or lack of bite, just by changing your type of pick.
Case in point: my favourite pick these days are the Fender Celluloid 346 shape, heavy gauge. I get the best sound with this pick. When I bought some new ones a while back it turns out they've changed the design.
Can you spot the difference?

The one on the left has a lot of "snap" and a sound that I love. The one on the right sounds completely dull and boring.

So in conclusion - get the 7/8 body, the 24,75"scale 24fret neck, some nice pickups and you'll get all the tone you want. After all, it's you that create the tone.

 

[spe111]

Shorter scale guitars definitely sound different. It's hard to say one sounds better than the other, I have heard a good sounding guitar in every scale length.

I think the easiest way to illustrate is to listen to a D-18 vs a Gibson Hummingbird. Pretty similar in materials and construction, different scale length. 

Scale length obviously also has a pretty big impact on how a guitar feels to play.

 

[wayfaerer]

Last night I tuned down my regular Strat a half step, capoed the first fret, and gave it a shot. I could not tell much difference, if any. I even recorded a riff at both full and reduced scale lengths and could not tell a difference, tonally. I did this both amplified and not amplified. Playability was improved for me in the shorter length. Also, moving my pick half an inch toward the bridge made a very noticeable difference, as expected. Much snappier. This leads me to believe that if the guitar ends up lacking the snap I like, adjusting my picking can absolutely compensate.

I measured the first fret and saw that it was over an inch wide, which is larger than the 3/4 inch difference between 25.5 and 24.75. So the reduced scale length in my test was in fact too drastic anyways.

All this made me much more confident in the 7/8 size, so I pulled the trigger and placed an order this morning. I'll report back when I can!

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

 

[bagman67]

Good thinking on your experiment.


You know you gotta post pics when your 7/8 body and neck come in. We live for that sort of thing.

 

[Logrinn]

Last night I tuned down my regular Strat a half step, capoed the first fret, and gave it a shot. I could not tell much difference, if any. I even recorded a riff at both full and reduced scale lengths and could not tell a difference, tonally. I did this both amplified and not amplified. Playability was improved for me in the shorter length. Also, moving my pick half an inch toward the bridge made a very noticeable difference, as expected. Much snappier. This leads me to believe that if the guitar ends up lacking the snap I like, adjusting my picking can absolutely compensate.

I measured the first fret and saw that it was over an inch wide, which is larger than the 3/4 inch difference between 25.5 and 24.75. So the reduced scale length in my test was in fact too drastic anyways.

All this made me much more confident in the 7/8 size, so I pulled the trigger and placed an order this morning. I'll report back when I can!

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

Good for you. I'm sure you'll be very satisfied with the shorter scale.
ccasion14:

 

[rgand]

Good idea to test the scale length. Thumbs-up to the order. Looking forward to build pics when you get the parts.

 

[fdesalvo]

Late to the party, but I’ve had two shorter scale strats that were incredibly stratty. I kept heavier gauge strings on them (11’s for tension and snap) and bolted on thick maple necks.  That’s where strat tone lives for me.