Wrong pore filler ... please help.

[Steve_Karl]

Hi,


I assumed that the term "natural" ( the color of the pore filler ) meant that it would take on the color of the wood behind it.
BIG mistake on my part.

It looked a lot better with just one coat of sealer on it.

This is a black korina body. Please see pics and advise?

Thank you!

 

[jackthehack]

The filler's turning white? What kind of filler? How do you plan on finishing the filled wood?

 

[Mor Paul]

Ouch, that's a bummer. Clear and natural aren't the same thing, unfortunately.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Hi jackthehack

The filler was called "Natural" so the actual color of it is a light cream.
The product is - "LMI Micro-Bead Paste Filler FMBF8"
from this tutorial - http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/TruOil.htm
Tru-Oil is the final finish.
The sealer used was from the same tutorial.  Tru-Oil sealer, 3 oz. FTOS

Can you tell me how to fix?

Thanks!

Hi Max ...  yea ... I just woke up and was having dreams about this ... knee deep in sand paper scraps.

 

[jackthehack]

"  LMI Micro-Bead Paste Filler FMBF8 (choose the appropriate color) - used to fill the open pores of rosewood, mahogany, etc."

Looks like you overlooked the "(choose the appropriate color)" caveat?

You basically have 3 choices here, note that I've never used the filler in question, but this is the order in which I would proceed.

1.) If the filler will absorb any stain/dye you could try that, may be problematic getting the dried filler to absorb anything....
2.) It looks like the grain/pores are not completely filled yet, this generally takes a number of applications for Korina. Get some black dye and see if you can get it to mix properly with the filler you have, or as an alternative, get some black grain filler and use that to finish filling the body, you might still have some issue(s) sanding back the colored filler back down to that "maple" color.
3.) Go get a pile of sandpaper, a block and sand all of that out and start over with properly colored or clear filler.

 

[Steve_Karl]

"  LMI Micro-Bead Paste Filler FMBF8 (choose the appropriate color) - used to fill the open pores of rosewood, mahogany, etc."

Looks like you overlooked the "(choose the appropriate color)" caveat?

You basically have 3 choices here, note that I've never used the filler in question, but this is the order in which I would proceed.

1.) If the filler will absorb any stain/dye you could try that, may be problematic getting the dried filler to absorb anything....
2.) It looks like the grain/pores are not completely filled yet, this generally takes a number of applications for Korina. Get some black dye and see if you can get it to mix properly with the filler you have, or as an alternative, get some black grain filler and use that to finish filling the body, you might still have some issue(s) sanding back the colored filler back down to that "maple" color.
3.) Go get a pile of sandpaper, a block and sand all of that out and start over with properly colored or clear filler.

Your # 3 seems the best option.
Can you recommend a black water based pore filler to use that will work under tru-oil?

LMI only has Mahogany, or Dark Walnut/Rosewood color, as other choices so if I had to pick one of those Dark walnut would be closest ? ...
... but I see where you're coming from with the black now that I've seen how this works first hand.
I'd rather not get into trying to mix dye with the filler. I don't think I could be consistent with the process.

Will wetting it with water ... before and while sanding help? What would water do?

Also -
What about the possibility of ( after sanding out the "maple" color ) just skipping the pore filling process
and doing the simple version of the tutorial? Is that going to need many more final coats? Can you define "aprox. how many more"?
Is sealer only used as a pre step to pore filling? Why is it not used if I choose to not pore fill?

Thanks!

 

[jackthehack]

StewMac.com has black water-based filler that a number of us here have used; keep in mind that once dried it is VERY hard and plastic like. Additionally it can add color to the non-grain part of the wood that will need to be sanded back; see this thread in which is was used on a mahogany body: http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=821.0

You apply the sealer coat BEFORE applying the color filler so that it's easier to sand back any extraneous color left by the colored fill, the way I did it in the link above is not optimal, but I was getting frustrated trying to get the mahogany to fill, which is a major pain in the ass.

Do not wet anything during the sanding process to either get the old filler out or sand any new filler back down; wet sanding should be done on top finish coats.

How many more coats? Hard to tell... Black Korina can be a pain to fill as the wood is very "waxy" and it's very easy to sand the filler back out of the grain pores. You just keep filling till it's smooth, if you're looking ultimately for a really smooth gloss finish.

 

[rapfohl09]

I feel like that is going to take away a ton of material, I mean the purpose of grain filler is to get deep down in the pores.

This is a problem, good luck to you.

 

[Steve_Karl]

StewMac.com has black water-based filler that a number of us here have used; keep in mind that once dried it is VERY hard and plastic like. Additionally it can add color to the non-grain part of the wood that will need to be sanded back; see this thread in which is was used on a mahogany body: http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=821.0

You apply the sealer coat BEFORE applying the color filler so that it's easier to sand back any extraneous color left by the colored fill, the way I did it in the link above is not optimal, but I was getting frustrated trying to get the mahogany to fill, which is a major pain in the ass.

Do not wet anything during the sanding process to either get the old filler out or sand any new filler back down; wet sanding should be done on top finish coats.

How many more coats? Hard to tell... Black Korina can be a pain to fill as the wood is very "waxy" and it's very easy to sand the filler back out of the grain pores. You just keep filling till it's smooth, if you're looking ultimately for a really smooth gloss finish.

Awesome work ( and a lot of it ) on your mahogany thin line!

On the stewmac black filler:
Do all dark fillers tend to color the non-grained parts of the wood?
The reason I ask is that I know how the LMI filler feels to sand, and it's not that difficult.

How do you think the LMI Dark Walnut/Rosewood color would work with this body?
(Since there's no color swatch and I have no experience it's hard to tell for me.)
My motive is to avoid the difficulty of a harder filler and hopefully also avoid the filler coloring the non-grained parts.
Understood now on the water and the sealer.

---------------------
On the "how many more coats?"  I'm just trying to get a wide ballpark figure.
After pore filling the tutorial say 3 to 4 top coats. ok

but
*IF* I don't pore fill ...

... would I be looking at closer to 6 to 8 top coats ... or more like 12 to 16 ( or more !?!?!? )
If you can guesstimate it for me that'll help point me in a direction. And I know it's a guess ... but you'll be better at a guess than I will.

My final goal is just to get it looking nice. I don't mind ending up with a softer satin look and feel so it doesn't need to be high gloss ...
... just decent looking and safe.

Thanks.

 

[Mor Paul]

If this is crazy, somebody better at finishing please tell me. How about seeing if black grain filler will help? Put it over the "natural." It will change the grain, but it should look good if it can cover it.

 

[jlegnor]

I don't think you want to try and sand it out.  Like Rap said, you'll end up with half of a guitar doing that. 

You could maybe try using a sewing needle or something similar to dig some of it out before you try the black grain filler. 

 

[Steve_Karl]

If this is crazy, somebody better at finishing please tell me. How about seeing if black grain filler will help? Put it over the "natural." It will change the grain, but it should look good if it can cover it.

Max ... thanks for coming back.

I just took a quick try at sanding out a bit of the cream filling ... and oooooooo ... it's gonna really take a lot of work and loss of wood to get it out of there.
So I think you're on the right track.

jackthehack suggested that as option # 2 with the possibility that there still might be some problems sanding back the black, and showing the cream,
but I think this is the way to go now that I've tried option 3 and found out it's gonna be a nightmare.

Really though ... my MAIN concern is not to sand off a few ounces of wood trying to fix this. I'd rather have the wood than the look.
I don't want to get into a major problem where the dark filler is coloring the whole body and having to sand that back.

At this point I'm even leaning towards just sealing it one more time and then doing the final sanding ( 320, 400 then 600 )
and then on to the tru-oil. Not sure at this point.

I might have bitten of more than I *want* to chew  ... but I'm listening to what you have to say so please keep talking with me on this for a while.

Thanks!

 

[Steve_Karl]

I don't think you want to try and sand it out.  Like Rap said, you'll end up with half of a guitar doing that.  

You could maybe try using a sewing needle or something similar to dig some of it out before you try the black grain filler.  

Yes. That is doable in the few heavy areas ... and there are only about 3 ... where it's really obviously cream colored.

The needle it will be ( I already tested that option earlier on a small section and it works )
....and then either black or dark walnut filler

or

( and I'm really leaning in this direction now )
straight to final sanding ( but maybe an other coat of sealer first ..?.. help me out here ...)

Thanks guys!

 

[jackthehack]

The StewMac water based filler dries hard as plastic and takes some work to sand back. I use the Jasco oil-based filler now and dye it to whatever color I want. The Lawrence McFadden filler available from StewMac: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Fillers_and_putties/Lawrence-McFadden_Grain_Filler.html is very similar to the Jasco and more readily accessable. Where do you live?

 

[Steve_Karl]

The StewMac water based filler dries hard as plastic and takes some work to sand back. I use the Jasco oil-based filler now and dye it to whatever color I want. The Lawrence McFadden filler available from StewMac: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Fillers_and_putties/Lawrence-McFadden_Grain_Filler.html is very similar to the Jasco and more readily accessable. Where do you live?

Thanks Jack, but I need to have water based. How do you think the LMI Dark Walnut would work?

What do you think of my idea to just clean it up as best I can with a needle or the tip of an XActo knife
and then go to final sanding and tru-oil?

I'm in Pittsburgh, PA USA

 

[Steve_Karl]

Jack .....

Is this the stuff that drys real hard like plastic?
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Fillers_and_putties/ColorTone_Waterbase_Grain_Filler.html?tab=Instructions#details

 

[jackthehack]

Yes that is; the clear is the best clear filler out there, though, were you going in that direction.

Why do you think you need water based?

 

[Steve_Karl]

Yes that is; the clear is the best clear filler out there, though, were you going in that direction.

Why do you think you need water based?

I'm still not committed to a direction yet. I'll be trying the XActo knife tonight or tomorrow to see if I can get the
cream color out of the 3 big areas.

I was just hoping to avoid the petrol products. I have such a hard time cleaning up and it also screws up my skin.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Update:

Cleaned out the white a bit with a small XActo knife blade tip and ordered some dark filler.

Update # 2:
I got the LMI Dark Walnut filler. Pretty nice. Looked like melted chocolate.
So it went into the pores very well, covering over most of the cream.
There are still some places where the white/cream didn't get covered but it looks nice. It adds an other dimension to it.

I'm happy with what's going on here.

1 or 2 more very small spots to fill today ( final touch up ) and then I'm done with the filling process.