Wierd intonation issue with my warmoth guitar

[RU36]

I have a mysterious intonation issue with my guitar.
Here is all the details, if you have any clues to what it could be please share.

Maple neck, 25.5 scale with graphtech nut, The neck is stable and very straight.

Hipshot fixed strat style string thru body bridge.

GHS boomer 10's tuned to Eflat standard.
Sometimes I tune up to E standard to jam with friends here and there.

The intonation once set is great, better than most necks in my collection.
My method of setting the intonation is open string checked against the 12th fret with a strobe tuner.
Like I said once you set it, its real solid, you can play all over the neck with no wobble on the chords at all.

The issue is that it keeps going sharp.
I keep moving the saddles back to correct it and a week later its sharp.
So the saddles on the low E and A string are so far back now that the spring is starting to bunch up.

I checked the neck bolts and they are nice and tight so the neck is not moving.
The bridge itself is not moving and is tight on the body.

It would be nice to change strings and not have to do the intonation every time.
Anyone here ever have an issue like that?

The issue is that

 

[BigBeard]

Stupid question,  but is it getting colder where you live?  If it's 70 degrees one day and I tune up and play, then the next day it's 58 degrees, my guitar is sharp.  Opposite when it's hotter.  if it goes from 70 to 75 or 80, it goes flat.  Not much, just enough to throw it off.  Maybe the strings are more sensitive to changes in temperature than the guitar is....  I don't know that was always my theory.  That would be a good science project for someone....

Is this happening on the same strings or do you have to re-intonate every string change.....  My neck through has that problem, but it is B and E with it.  It isn't much either, just enough to make it out of tune with itself that I have to adjust it a bit.  The more I own that guitar, the less I like it. 

Maybe it's just the strings, I mean if there is the tiniest variation in the alloy of metal that the strings are made of, it will change the properties of the finished metal.  I would think that no matter how small the molecular difference in strings is, that it would ever so slightly change the way they reacted to stretching, hence the different intonation.  I'm no scientist, so what I am stepping in might actually be crap, but then again maybe I'm on to something.....  Any varable no matter how small, will change something down the line.  Domino effect.  I am thinking on the lines of a bad batch of strings, not your guitar.  Unless it happens with every set of strings you put on

 

[RU36]

The temperature is very stable, I live in California in an area with good climate.
The thing that makes me think its not the strings is that I use the same brand and same gauge every time,
and whats weird about it is that the intonation is always sharp.

Its as if I set it and then the saddles slip forward or something and have to be moved back.
It happens on all the strings not just one or two, but some worse than others.
:icon_scratch:

 

[drewfx]

Maybe a problem with the nut?

If you have a capo, try checking against the capo instead of open strings.

 

[Dan025]

you say the neck is strait and stable so i assume your checking it, is the string action also not changing? maybe the body relaxing?

also strings will have a different amount of stretch as they break in, stretch being the overtones being sharper than a true mathematical harmonic requiring the scale to have high notes tuned slightly sharper than expected and low notes flatter than expected to sound harmonious with other strings. stretch is assumed to be the result of stiffness in the string, large unwound strings like the G on a set of 13s like srv played have more stretch, also tightly wound strings like DR strings have more before they break in, if the over tones are affecting the strobe and not the fundamental then there can be a discrepancy over time, or it may have nothing to do with that.

maybe it's simple, as the string breaks in relaxes, it stretches physically, any metal object that is stretched will get thinner for one thing but there is a point that it resists stretch beyond, called a yeild point. the resistance to being pulled any further will get greater and the string will get harder as the grains line up. i'm not suggesting that you have reached the yeild point as the string would break if you bent it but as you get closer the string gets harder to stretch. it may be a normal process that you never noticed before or a stretchy set of strings.

 

[mmarino92]

Could be a truss rod thing, no?

MM

 

[Alfang]

I think Dan is on the right track here,  I've always heard to string er up and wait a day or two to set intonation, the thought here is that the strings when new resist stretching more , although  I would expect the intonation to change flat not sharp.

I don't know, sounds strange, itonation should be straight forward and somewhat simple, I'd double check that something isn't loose somewhere. let us know what you find  ccasion14:

 

[RU36]

Thanks for all the feed back.
The idea of the body relaxing or wood settling in was my only theory.

When I put on new strings, i stretch them, then play for a bit, then stretch them and repeat till the stay in tune solid.
This is that only takes about a half hour.
THEN I check the intonation.
So the strings are broke in, also I know what you mean about the harmonics and over tone messing with the strobe.
I usually use the neck pick up and play pick softly with the side of my thumb so there is less noise and more fundamental note.

The thing that is weird is that it always is going sharp, its not like its just out of adjustment with some sharp some flat they are all sharp.
I think my next step is to remove the bridge and see if its lose, or if the saddles are slipping forward on the threads of the adjustment screw.
Maybe some low power lock tight on the saddle adjustment threads.

At any rate its nice to hear feed back and help co=sign some of the theories in my head

 

[stubhead]

I always intonate at the "mid-point" of the age of my strings. I also happen to like the sound of strings that are worn-in, at least a few days or so. I tend towards a trebly setup, then control it with the way I play and/or the guitar's tone controls.

I think this is just your strings wearing in. If you have to set it one way with new strings, then it consistently moves another direction as the strings age - (?) You could try setting it "perfect" in your normal way, tolerate the changes for a few weeks, then put on a new set of strings and see if it reverts to perfect.... I have had (polite) screaming shit-fights with band mates, students etc. about the practice of setting intonation with brand new strings, BTW. It's bound to go out of tune that way. There is a happy medium available, it's still fewer cents off than the problems caused by Equal Tempered tuning.

 

[Superbeast520]

I think your truss rod adjustment isnt correct,

 with a capo on the first fret I set the saddle height, I measure between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the 17th fret and set it to 2mm or less depending how much bending and how good the fret work is, if its really level all across the board I go less, just as long as there is no buzzing...the metal guys will want less than 2mm....I do that on all the strings and that will give the correct radius to the saddles automatically.

I would completely redo the setup after loosening the truss rod a bit then start over from scratch, first tune the guitar to pitch, set the action at the 8th fret (adjust the truss rod)....(12gauge string would work for that) ...capo the first fret and hold down the last fret and there should be just enough room to slide a 12 gauge string between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the 8th fret, tighten it to flatten the board out and make the action less and loosen it if you want more space for bending and blues etc. and maximum tone.....you can go as low as 10gauge if your frets are very level, and even lower if your into super low action high gain, metal stuff, where tone isnt the main factor.

also check to see that your strings arnt sticking in the nut grooves,make sure the slots are as wide as your string is thick and smooth along the sides and the slot is back filed with a downward slope where the string is leaving the nut heading to the tuning key,the nut is one of the most important factors to good tone and perfect pitch.  I do my nuts exactly as shown by Dan Erlewine in his book: How to make your guitar play great! ....Stew mac


I capo the third fret and make sure my Low E nut slot is low enough that I can only slide an 8 gauge string between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the first fret, and about a 4 gauge feeler between the bottom of the high E string and the top of the first fret. The gap should taper down from the Low E to the High E as the strings diameter gets less so accordingly....

 Stretch the strings a bit more and tune the guitar to pitch again...set the intonation of the low E string and tune the guitar to pitch again set the intonation for the 5th string and tune the guitar to pitch again etc, etc, with all the strings, always tuning the whole guitar to pitch after each string is intonated.....I use a Peterson Strobo Stomp for intonation...a Strobe tuner is a necessity here.

......I also check my open string against my 12th fret note with the strobe till they are exact. if its too sharp at the 12th fret move the saddle back if its too flat at the 12th fret move the saddle forward. after you have completely intonated.....tune to pitch again...yep exhausting but ya gotta do it if you want good tone...

now play the sh*t out of it for the day.......then come back tomorrow and reintonate as some of the strings will have changed while the truss rod was settling over night, after that I may adjust a string here or there a day or two later if it dosnt seem quite right pitch wise and that should be it......


If you do all of these things there should be no more problems. :icon_thumright: