Wider channel routing?

[Re-Pete]

In recent years there's been an increase in solderless connection systems. Seymour Duncan, EMG, Gibson, now Fender, all seems to utilise a system, to some degree, of solderless connecting.

The issue I have found - and this is especially so in EMG pickup systems - is that the channel routing in Rear Routed bodies, is too narrow.

In a lot of cases you can work around it, but ideally you want to be able to thread a pickup cable through the channel and then into the control cavity for hookup - without having to cut the wire and solder a joint in later.

Would it be at all possible to get the dimension of the widest connector around (I'm guessing an EMG89 has the widest connector plug) and see if the channel could be widened to accommodate it?

Obviously, on top routed bodies this isn't so much an issue. But on bodies like Carved Top Teles, VIPs,  rear routed Jazzmaster/Strats etc and Regal bodies, this may cause problems.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

The majority of non-LP type of bodies is just a long drill bit from the neck pocket, through to the control cavity. 

 

[swarfrat]

You can easily pop the pins out of most rectangular housings for fishing through.

 

[Cagey]

The majority of non-LP type of bodies is just a long drill bit from the neck pocket, through to the control cavity.

Right. They're called "aircraft" bits. They look like a regular twist drill, but they're typically 12" long. Very handy.

 

[stubhead]

It wouldn't hurt to make them somewhat bigger though. I surely qualify for the contest called "Fastest Warmothian to violate the warranties on wood guitar parts." I mean, I KNOW they aren't sacrosanct, it's a blessing in disguise that they don't have "resale value" as a niggling little thought like when you're staring at a Gibson or Fender thinking "Boy if I just sawed off this and pounded in a doohickie this thing would rock!" But you know you can't. :sad1: Used to be able to - I wonder where DID all those 1954 - 1979 Strats that got reamed out with a screwdriver to put a humbucker in it GO?!?

And enlarging that hole enough for an EMG would take a really big bit - it seems like you'd really want like a SLOT-shaped hole?

 

[Re-Pete]

Yes, a  large slot hole would do nicely.       :icon_thumright:


Though, I must add, that EMG is not doing anybody any favours by employing larger connectors than the common routing sizings on most guitars, in their solderless pickup systems. And there's sweet F.A. on their website about how to negotiate that issue....

WARNING : Rant follows that may or may not be, on topic

I've had a Warmoth Carved Top Tele guitar up at the repairer for the sole purpose of running a  length of 4 conductor cable through the routing.

This is a job I would normally do. But like Stubhead's comment about not wanting to trash an otherwise great looking body, it went to the repairer for a more professional approach. It's a job I tried without success before, on the same body (which was routed in the classical Les Paul styling not the larger cavity hole btw grrrrr)  :sad1:

I warned the guy it was a 'bloody nuisance' job & apologised profusely for lumping the job on him.

When I collected the guitar he told me of umpteen times he thought he had it, only to find the cable somehow exiting the channel in the bridge pickup exit hole into the cavity! So the cable started at the neck pickup - into the channel that the neck pickup & toggle switch cables run into - then it exits the bridge pickup channel into the control cavity.  :tard:

That issue was also part of my experience with this body.

I also WISH I had specifically requested the LARGER control cavity, but somehow the folks at Warmoth thought that the body only needed the pissy small Gibson styled cavity.

Maybe the smaller control cavity was necessitated due to the body also having a trem rout? (The assumption being that a larger control cavity might breakthrough on the trem routing underneath  :dontknow: )

The smaller control cavity has definitely been an issue with this body as I had tried extensive active electronics (solder burns on the fingers can be avoided if you have a larger area to work in & not all of us are technicians using solder irons everyday/developed advanced soldering skills  ) & still today I am wiring up Seymour Duncan Blackout Modular Preamp controls. Thankfully, most of the more popular active control systems are now solderless but a few years ago when I started this project, the systems were still soldered & the experience was best described as "OUCH!" (Or,"is someone cooking bacon around here.....")

I can only guess that 'under the hood' the two channels run into each other and are open at that point. If the toggle switch cable is in there already, that will force the neck pickup cable (or vice versa) into the other channel due to the tightness of the fit.  I will claim - unless someone can tell me it's somehow the norm for two routing channels to join at a junction that is inaccessible- that that is a poor manufacture effort from Warmoth right there.  And considering I paid a sh*tload on upgrading options on that body, it is disappointing. But damn, the body looks great.  So no, there was no warranty claim.

In the meantime, if anyone ever asks me about doing a Carved Top Tele project, my advice would be: GO HOLLOW!  :toothy11:

 

[stubhead]

It would be fairly easy to drill two long holes parallel to each other, wide enough for the connector. You might even be able to run a third one up between there. But then you still have to take out the wood between them. If it was right there, a keyhole saw would work fine, so would a narrow chisel. But it's not right there - you're two pickups away? Trying to exert a sideways force in a small cavity three inches away, working blind.... I don't have a tool that I can think of that would do a good job of that, except maybe (this is weird): if you started a hole at the bottom of the neck cavity, all the way through to the control cavity, you could run one of those round, wire tungsten carbide hacksaw blades in there. Then attach the top of the hacksaw frame to the end poking into the control cavity. You'd only get short, maybe 1 1/2" strokes, but it would, eventually*, do it. I'm sure there's some ultra-cool, ultra-expensive mini-tip-router robotics thing, but I ain't got one. You could probably get one of those tungsten-wire saw blades for a jeweler's saw, which would give you more play. I ain't got a jeweler's saw... I do know the flat tungsten carbide Saandvik hacksaw blades are killer wood saws, those will glide through maple or rosewood in nothing flat.

From scratch, it would be a breeze to cut a channel before you glued the top onto a... top-glued body thing, but that isn't gonna help with this. From scratch, I woulda just been born a billionaire and have flunkies to worry about the small stuff.

*(quite a long eventual, too)

P.S. (Don't some of those jeweler's saws have rotating blade mounts? Even a thin flat blade would work OK then.)

 

[swarfrat]

Drilling parallel tangential holes as you describe 100 diameters deep is what machinist would call "interrupted cut from hell" and tool life would be measured in in bits per hole.If it worked even once. The hole is hidden, just make it bigger. Or pop them suckers out of their housing and just fish the wires trough like I said.

 

[Cagey]

The hole is hidden, just make it bigger. Or pop them suckers out of their housing and just fiah the wires trough like I said.

Both good solutions. Bigger hole might require an "aircraft bit", but they're easy enough to come by.

Disassembling the connectors isn't as difficult as one might imagine. The connector pins are held into the housing by a little tang or barb on the connector itself, which expands into a relief in the housing. Disassembly is just a matter of pushing that tang out of the way of the hole and pulling back on the connector.

In the picture above, you can see the little windows for each connector about halfway into the housing. The tang is expanded into that hole. Simply push on the tang with the end of a paper clip,  exacto blade or something that will reach in there while holding the housing and putting mild pulling pressure on the wire. Don't be too aggressive with pushing on the tang or you're liable to bend it out of shape permanently and it won't reassemble. Although, even if you do that, an exacto blade can often be used to bend the tang back up so it behaves like a barb again.

You may want to make a drawing with wire colors and/or numbers or some way of identifying where the wires go back in. The #1 pin on the housing is usually indicated somehow, with an arrow as above, a dot or something to make pin 1 unique.

 

[Re-Pete]

It would be fairly easy to drill two long holes parallel to each other, wide enough for the connector. You might even be able to run a third one up between there. But then you still have to take out the wood between them. If it was right there, a keyhole saw would work fine, so would a narrow chisel. But it's not right there - you're two pickups away? Trying to exert a sideways force in a small cavity three inches away, working blind.... I don't have a tool that I can think of that would do a good job of that, except maybe (this is weird): if you started a hole at the bottom of the neck cavity, all the way through to the control cavity, you could run one of those round, wire tungsten carbide hacksaw blades in there. Then attach the top of the hacksaw frame to the end poking into the control cavity. You'd only get short, maybe 1 1/2" strokes, but it would, eventually*, do it. I'm sure there's some ultra-cool, ultra-expensive mini-tip-router robotics thing, but I ain't got one. You could probably get one of those tungsten-wire saw blades for a jeweler's saw, which would give you more play. I ain't got a jeweler's saw... I do know the flat tungsten carbide Saandvik hacksaw blades are killer wood saws, those will glide through maple or rosewood in nothing flat.

From scratch, it would be a breeze to cut a channel before you glued the top onto a... top-glued body thing, but that isn't gonna help with this. From scratch, I woulda just been born a billionaire and have flunkies to worry about the small stuff.

*(quite a long eventual, too)

P.S. (Don't some of those jeweler's saws have rotating blade mounts? Even a thin flat blade would work OK then.)

Thanx for the contribution Stubhead, but the job's completed & the guitar is back. I don't intend swapping out pickups anytime soon on it either!

I've done 3 Warmoth Projects. The first was a bog standard Butterscotch Blonde Tele. The project was near flawless as I did a lot of research & being a Tele setup, the info was there to be found.

The second grew from the first and was - in hindsight - too adventurous & it's been a headache since day 1 in 2002. Only just recently that guitar got the pickups and electronics that would work well with the maple body & maple/ebony neck.

The third project (this Carved Top Tele) grew out of the spare parts of the second with leftover pickups and active electronics that didn't work well within the second! Plus a dose of GAS when I saw a lovely flamed Koa neck with an ebony board on Showcase (BTW has anyone reported that Showcase section of Warmoth's site as the work of the Devil!  :evil4: ). Now all I have to do is hookup the pickups now installed in that & all 3 projects are just about done but definitely in working condition.

 

[Re-Pete]

The hole is hidden, just make it bigger. Or pop them suckers out of their housing and just fiah the wires trough like I said.

Both good solutions. Bigger hole might require an "aircraft bit", but they're easy enough to come by.

Disassembling the connectors isn't as difficult as one might imagine. The connector pins are held into the housing by a little tang or barb on the connector itself, which expands into a relief in the housing. Disassembly is just a matter of pushing that tang out of the way of the hole and pulling back on the connector.

In the picture above, you can see the little windows for each connector about halfway into the housing. The tang is expanded into that hole. Simply push on the tang with the end of a paper clip,  exacto blade or something that will reach in there while holding the housing and putting mild pulling pressure on the wire. Don't be too aggressive with pushing on the tang or you're liable to bend it out of shape permanently and it won't reassemble. Although, even if you do that, an exacto blade can often be used to bend the tang back up so it behaves like a barb again.

You may want to make a drawing with wire colors and/or numbers or some way of identifying where the wires go back in. The #1 pin on the housing is usually indicated somehow, with an arrow as above, a dot or something to make pin 1 unique.

Bloody hell Cagey,you are so right there!!!!!

Why isn't this info on the EMG site FFS.....GRRRRRR  :doh:

I recall your original comments about popping the wires out of the socket and feeding the wires through then reconnecting, and I took that as taking the socket casing apart. But the photo above tells it far simpler & believe me, I WISH I had known this years ago.

In the electronics section you might wanna take your comment and open a Thread about solderless connectors & put it up as a tutorial or something.

I had some of my guitar tool stuff out & ready for this morning's escapade wiring up the Carved Top Tele to the SD Blackout Modular Preamp, so I got a tiny screwdriver out, popped the barb tab & lo & behold the wired connector came out with a bit of tugging. Took all of TWO minutes. :hello2:

Mind you, the rout channel inside the CT Tele that I have, is barely wide enough for two standard cables of 4 conductor (plus Bare Ground) to run through, let alone individual wires with connectors.

 

[Cagey]

I'm glad that worked out for you.

You should keep in mind that this isn't really a service procedure, it's just something that's possible if you know how the things are assembled. It's a trick you keep in the back of your head for last ditch efforts because the pins aren't really meant to come out. The metal isn't designed to be springy; quite the opposite. It's a compression connector that crimps on the wire, so you really don't want it to spring back. What that means is if you do this more than a couple/few times, the connector will quite likely be ruined. Replacing it is easy enough with the right tools, but identifying the pin so you can even buy a replacement could be quite a challenge, and the tools to do it are highly specialized (read: expensive).

 

[Re-Pete]

I'm glad that worked out for you.

You should keep in mind that this isn't really a service procedure, it's just something that's possible if you know how the things are assembled. It's a trick you keep in the back of your head for last ditch efforts because the pins aren't really meant to come out. The metal isn't designed to be springy; quite the opposite. It's a compression connector that crimps on the wire, so you really don't want it to spring back. What that means is if you do this more than a couple/few times, the connector will quite likely be ruined. Replacing it is easy enough with the right tools, but identifying the pin so you can even buy a replacement could be quite a challenge, and the tools to do it are highly specialized (read: expensive).

That last bit of your previous post that I have highlighted: Does that mean that the individual wire connectors are set onto the wire with a special tool & that is expensive? To me, it looks like a crimping tool job?  :dontknow:
Sure you have to find the right connector, but once you have that, it looks like feeding the bared wire into the connector from the back & crimping it on.

 

[Cagey]

It is just a crimp. But, the tool that does it is unusual in that it's very job-specific. Although, with some manufacturers, you can buy a tool that will accept different die sets to accommodate different connectors. You buy the tool, then buy the die set you need for the connector you're using, rather than buy a bunch of different crimpers.

When I say "expensive", I'm talking in terms of tools you'd have around the house. For instance, a Sta-Kon crimping tool will only run about $10 as those lugs are common as dirt, but a Molex crimper like we're talking about here will often run in excess of $60-$80, plus die sets at $20-$30 ea. Since they're not the kind of thing you'd use very often, I put that in the expensive category. Of course, if you do a lot of that sort of work, then it's not bad.

 

[swarfrat]

Digi-Key, Mouser, any electronics supply house. Or ebay. Its a .100" pitch bog standard rectangular female connector. You can crimp emwith needle nose. You should beable to pop existing pins outif their housing with a needle or appropriate pointy sticker device

 

[Re-Pete]

It is just a crimp. But, the tool that does it is unusual in that it's very job-specific. Although, with some manufacturers, you can buy a tool that will accept different die sets to accommodate different connectors. You buy the tool, then buy the die set you need for the connector you're using, rather than buy a bunch of different crimpers.

When I say "expensive", I'm talking in terms of tools you'd have around the house. For instance, a Sta-Kon crimping tool will only run about $10 as those lugs are common as dirt, but a Molex crimper like we're talking about here will often run in excess of $60-$80, plus die sets at $20-$30 ea. Since they're not the kind of thing you'd use very often, I put that in the expensive category. Of course, if you do a lot of that sort of work, then it's not bad.

Thanx for the reply.  :icon_thumright: