Why Doesn't Warmoth Use Nitrocellulose for Finishes?

[mayfly]

Agreed. The demand for components and manufacturing processes that match "the way Leo did it" revolves around the idea that vintage guitars sound superior to new ones, which I believe is a false premise.


I absolutely believe the best playing and sounding electric guitars ever built are being built right now.

+1 on all of this.  I've played a lot of guitars from the 50's, 60's and 70's that were just not very good instruments.

These days, you can even make a great guitar from Guitar Fetish parts 

 

[Wolfie351]

My only issue is the way poly feels, wares (doesn't), and the way it gets damaged.  Personally, I'd rather have a dent than a spiderweb crack.  Nitro is also much easier to repair if you're OCD about aesthetics.  I really wish I can say I tuck all my guitars into bed with a nice soft feather pillow...but, when stuff gets moved from place to place, things do happen.

Not about to bash vintage gear.  Some of the best music ever recorded used those years and models of instruments.  If someone wants to recreate that sound, I'm not going to disparage them.  Actually, we'd find out who the real musicians are if we limited everyone to 50s/60s recording technology.  Better gear doesn't equal better music

 

[AirCap]

"the way Leo did it"

Leo was a smart guy with a screwdriver in his pocket. He was not a guitar builder - he didn't even play. Still -  a lotta cool guitars with his name on them.

Orville was a real craftsman and artist, but he was mentally unstable. That said, I'd follow Orville's muse rather than Leo's. Makes for a better legacy.

Just sayin'.

 

[aarontunes]

My only issue is the way poly feels, wares (doesn't), and the way it gets damaged.  Personally, I'd rather have a dent than a spiderweb crack.  Nitro is also much easier to repair if you're OCD about aesthetics.  I really wish I can say I tuck all my guitars into bed with a nice soft feather pillow...but, when stuff gets moved from place to place, things do happen.

Not about to bash vintage gear.  Some of the best music ever recorded used those years and models of instruments.  If someone wants to recreate that sound, I'm not going to disparage them.  Actually, we'd find out who the real musicians are if we limited everyone to 50s/60s recording technology.  Better gear doesn't equal better music

Your points about nitro are legit: it's easier to repair, and as it ages it becomes beautifully patinated in a way that poly does not. Personally, I don't worry for a second about what my guitars will look like as they age. I own them to play them, and gear that gets gigged with WILL get dinged, scratched, and worn. No way around it, no matter how much care you take. We will see what they all look like when I'm done with them.


I definitely agree that some of the best music ever made was made on vintage instruments. I would add that the rest of the best music ever made was made on contemporary instruments. You are right in saying that better gear doesn't equal better music, but it doesn't equal inferior music either. New technology makes new things possible. There is a lot of great music that has been recorded since the 50's and 60's that could not have been performed or recorded then (at least not as we know it). Bohemian Rhapsody, for example.

 

[shaps6]

I absolutely believe the best playing and sounding electric guitars ever built are being built right now.

No question about it. As far as I'm concerned, "vintage" guitars are sucker bait. Nothing I'd want to own. If somebody gave me  a '57 LP, first thing I'd do is put it on ebay and start planning my next house.

This might be my favorite post in this forum.

 

[shaps6]

I've gotta say, this has been a really educational thread. I really appreciate all the responses. Way to go, folks!

You guys have pretty much convinced me that the nitro thing is "cork sniffery." The aesthetics of nitro, though, well...I do like the way Nitro ages. But that's not about the sound. Separate animal.

At bottom, if it looks good and sounds good, I don't really care. I don't know what it is about vintage guitars that make some of them sound better. I've played PAFs that sound unlike any modern PAF reissues, and I've played old guitars from the '50s that have modern pickups and still sound just as good.

 

[musicispeace]

All the reasons stated above are correct. Paint is to guitar manufacturer what cheese is to a taco truck: one of the most expensive and volatile ingredients. It takes a lot of work and research to find the paint that is: 1)safe, 2)cheap, 3)fast, 4)beautiful, 5)durable.


And, in my humble and completely personal opinion, nitro is way overrated. It's become an over-hyped and lazy marketing buzz word. Like hide glue. I've completely moved beyond caring about having things "the way Leo did it". But that's just me.


Not calling the OP lazy or anything. It's just interesting to me that people demand the latest and greatest technology in so many things, but are completely married to a 70 year old design when it comes to guitars.

When I started playing again I just marveled at the number of so called techs or "luthiers" in hip Seattle who looked at me like I was speaking Russian if I said Wilkinson bridge or Bare Knuckle pickups. Trapped in the past at customer's expense.

 

[amigarobbo]

There is a lot of great music that has been recorded since the 50's and 60's that could not have been performed or recorded then (at least not as we know it). Bohemian Rhapsody, for example.

You're using a song made in 1974 as an example of modern technology?  :evil4:

 

[arealken]

The one big thing I've heard that proponents of Nitro say is that it lets the wood "breathe" :confused4:

 

[Cagey]

"Lacquer lets wood breathe." Where do people come up with this stuff? If we put on a LOT of lacquer, will it go from breathing to giggling uncontrollably? How much lacquer do we need to make a piece of wood dance? And how do we know the lacquer is leting the wood breathe? Maybe it's just shivering. Maybe it's having convulsions from acetone poisoning. How will we know when it stops breathing? Will it turn blue?

The wood is deceased. It has shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. Its metabolic processes are a matter of interest only to historians. It has ceased to be. It's a dead piece of wood. If you see it breathing, run!

 

[JD0x0]

Why would you want wood to 'breathe'? half the point of using finish is to seal and protect the wood against weather.

Lacquer is thinner and lighter. On acoustic tops it'll dampen less than poly. That's the only sonic advantage I can think of.

 

[Cagey]

Why would you want wood to 'breathe'? half the point of using finish is to seal and protect the wood against weather.

Perzactly. Let your Maple/Mahogany/Walnut neck breathe and it'll turn into a pretzel.

 

[Verne Bunsen]

The wood is deceased. It has shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. Its metabolic processes are a matter of interest only to historians. It has ceased to be. It's a dead piece of wood.

No, no, it's pining for the fjords!

 

[Cagey]

Hehe! Perzactly!  :laughing7:

 

[musicispeace]

I've gotta say, this has been a really educational thread. I really appreciate all the responses. Way to go, folks!

You guys have pretty much convinced me that the nitro thing is "cork sniffery." The aesthetics of nitro, though, well...I do like the way Nitro ages. But that's not about the sound. Separate animal.

At bottom, if it looks good and sounds good, I don't really care. I don't know what it is about vintage guitars that make some of them sound better. I've played PAFs that sound unlike any modern PAF reissues, and I've played old guitars from the '50s that have modern pickups and still sound just as good.

In the end I think you gotta roll with what you want but sometimes that prolly should include a good sit down with yourself about if you believe enough in a theory to put your money on it... if it matters that much to you. I have a couple poly finished guitars from the Warmoth shop and I have a couple where I got the bodies unfinished from Warmoth and shipped them off to MJT for finishing. The reason I did so has nothing to do with nitro and everything to do with working with MJT on a translucent finish I really wanted done to my specs. That said I really, really liked the results, which were in nirto because that is what MJT does. I have no complaints about either finish. They will undoubtedly wear differently but that is part of the awesomeness of diversity to me. Its apples and oranges. As said, nitro takes a lot more time to cure so its hard for a shop to make it work on a production level plus there are now a lot of environmental regulations that make it hard for a business as well. But I have to say I DO NOT buy into most of the horse waste I hear or see online about guitars. In the end NO audience member is going to leap up between songs and shout "That's a Tusq nut..." or scream out that your nitro finish is really making that wood breathe and how they hear that in the tone.

 

[BigSteve22]

The wood is deceased. It has shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. Its metabolic processes are a matter of interest only to historians. It has ceased to be. It's a dead piece of wood. If you see it breathing, run!

Or, to paraphrase Monty Python: If it weren't screwed to the body, it would be pushing up daises!

Paint is to guitar manufacturer what cheese is to a taco truck....

double A, I think I have a new favorite quote!

:icon_jokercolor:

 

[aarontunes]

There is a lot of great music that has been recorded since the 50's and 60's that could not have been performed or recorded then (at least not as we know it). Bohemian Rhapsody, for example.

You're using a song made in 1974 as an example of modern technology?  :evil4:

LOL. You're right...there are million other songs that are more recent examples. I chose to use that song specifically because it represented a pretty major leap forward from the recording technology of the 50's and 60's, but was old enough that it couldn't simply be dismissed as "that computerized crap kids listen to today."


At first I thought about using Sgt. Peppers as my example, but I could already here the counter-argument "Sgt Peppers was recorded on only four tracks!"


I don't want to hijack this thread more than I already have, so maybe I'll start another thread about this.

 

[Kostas]

I'm curious, everyone says nitro takes forever to cure but a showcase neck was shipped to me in five days after I had placed my order. It was unfinished and I asked for satin nitro.

 

[Cagey]

Nitro doesn't cure, it dries through evaporation of the solvent, and that happens practically coming out of the gun. You can sand on it in an hour. But, it's still too soft to really polish up nice. Takes a couple weeks at least for it to harden to the point where that can happen, and it continues to dry for months after that.

I've never done any satin finishes, but obviously you don't polish those up to a fine gloss, so perhaps they let those out the door faster. Plus, are you sure it's nitro? I didn't think Warmoth was doing nitro anymore.

 

[VonBaffle]

There is a lot of great music that has been recorded since the 50's and 60's that could not have been performed or recorded then (at least not as we know it). Bohemian Rhapsody, for example.

You're using a song made in 1974 as an example of modern technology?  :evil4:

LOL. You're right...there are million other songs that are more recent examples. I chose to use that song specifically because it represented a pretty major leap forward from the recording technology of the 50's and 60's, but was old enough that it couldn't simply be dismissed as "that computerized crap kids listen to today."


At first I thought about using Sgt. Peppers as my example, but I could already here the counter-argument "Sgt Peppers was recorded on only four tracks!"


I don't want to hijack this thread more than I already have, so maybe I'll start another thread about this.

Tom Sholtz comes to mind.