Why doesn"t Warmoth burnish roasted maple necks?

[WindsurfMaui]

Why doesn't Warmoth burnish roasted maple necks? I understand this is a question that can't be definitively answered so let me ask it a different way. Is there any negative to burnishing a roasted maple , or other wood, necks?

My question about Warmoth burnishing necks is simply, if burnishing makes a neck feel so much better, slicker, faster then as a business competitive advantage Warmoth must have the technology to do it  inhouse better and cheaper than other guitar parts vendors so they would have a competitive advantage over other guitar part makers. What would it add an additional $5 or $10 to the price of a raw wood neck like roasted maple? So if Warmoth offered burnished necks wouldn't they sell more necks than other companies?

 

[AirCap]

Because MONEY.

 

[stratamania]

Also despite popular belief on this forum, not everyone wants to burnish necks that do not require a finish.

Burnishing would be as Aircap states it would cost time and money for Warmoth to do it and not everyone would want it.

You are awarded the forum WindsurfMaui award for asking Why questions

 

[aarontunes]

Because MONEY.

This is the correct answer to every "why question" ever posed regarding Warmoth's offerings.


It is also the correct answer to every "why question" ever posed regarding any other business's offerings.

 

[Cagey]

It's a time-consuming process, so it wouldn't be an additional $5 or $10, more likely it would be in the range of $60-$75.

Any business like Warmoth has what's known as a "labor burden" cost that has to be overcome, then they have to add profit to that. "Labor Burden" isn't just the cost of labor, it includes the cost of the building, utilities, insurance, taxes, management/administration, etc. divided by the number of productive employees, so it's a bigger number than you might imagine. Even though they may only pay the average worker, say, $20/hr, by the time you add everything up to even be able to have an employee, it might be $40/hr or more per employee you have to make just to break even. Add a little to make it all worthwhile, and suddenly what seems like a fairly simple thing gets surprisingly pricey.

 

[aarontunes]

It's a time-consuming process, so it wouldn't be an additional $5 or $10, more likely it would be in the range of $60-$75.

Any business like Warmoth has what's known as a "labor burden" cost that has to be overcome, then they have to add profit to that. "Labor Burden" isn't just the cost of labor, it includes the cost of the building, utilities, insurance, taxes, management/administration, etc. divided by the number of productive employees, so it's a bigger number than you might imagine. Even though they may only pay the average worker, say, $20/hr, by the time you add everything up to even be able to have an employee, it might be $40/hr or more per employee you have to make just to break even. Add a little to make it all worthwhile, and suddenly what seems like a fairly simple thing gets surprisingly pricey.

Well put.


Also, something that gets overlooked all the time by people requesting things from Warmoth is scale. Processes that are very simple for one guy to do to one item do not easily translate to a production queue of fifteen guys working on 300 items per day. When people insist otherwise, I'm betting they have never managed a production queue of fifteen guys working on 300 items per day. They don't know how much they don't know.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Also despite popular belief on this forum, not everyone wants to burnish necks that do not require a finish.

Burnishing would be as Aircap states it would cost time and money for Warmoth to do it and not everyone would want it.

You are awarded the forum WindsurfMaui award for asking Why questions

I agree and would also add not everyone wants burnished fret boards.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

First let me thank everyone who replied. I appreciate all answers even ones that say I'm a dumb ass.  :>) There are times when the reason something isn't done is money. But there are other times when stuff isn't done because no one thought of it. And other times when businesses just draw a line in the sand and say this is all we do and we don't do anything more. That is when smart people start a business to give those customers, if there are enough of them, what they want.

So I don't understand the woodworking process in a shop like Warmoth's but if a machine is sanding the necks currently to whatever level of finish they have now then a machine can be set to sand to a higher level. And on roasted necks especially if people want a slick fast unfinished neck then more than likely I think they would want it burnished. So Warmoth should just burnish all the roasted maple necks unless a customer asks for it not to be burnished. I suspect that the cost wouldn't actually be as high as $40 per neck but I can't prove it. I have watched as many of the Warmoth  production videos as I could find and they seem pretty cutting edge using machines in their process.

All that aside, so are there any negatives to burnishing a roasted maple neck?

 

[Fat Pete]

...All that aside, so are there any negatives to burnishing a roasted maple neck?

They are dangerously slippery - makes it very easy to drop your guitar on cats, hard floors and other hazards, but mainly cats.

Cats say no to burnished necks.

 

[Logrinn]

I've received three necks from Warmoth that were polished extremely smooth. I imagine you could call them burnished. I haven't done anything to them as I feel there wasn't any need to do so.
The feeling of those necks is similar to the feeling of a finished glossy neck minus the "stickiness" that you often associate with glossy laquered necks.
So - negatives? I can't think of any.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Burnishing is a hand process, not a process done by a CNC machine.
This is what makes it labor intensive.  The hand sanding in Warmoth's shop is largely to remove tooling marks left by the CNC machine, and that sanding has some pretty exacting tolerances where calipers are used for referencing those tolerances along the way.
Even with the extended accuracy of CNC machine work, there is still a considerable amount of manual labor that is necessary in a production environment, and that is where the line gets drawn financially.
Knowing from working there, and knowing the process involved in CNC programming, in addition to the actual labor involved in doing a burnishing job, I can tell you that the uncharge you suggested would not cover the expense of it.  It is what it is, and it's based on math, not an emotional attachment to an idea that we want to see come to fruition.  I have to make decisions like this when a customer brings me an instrument, and when I provide a quote based on my $45/hr starting point + parts, that's when customers start deciding what is affordable for them and what isn't, & then they cut back on desired options to afford what is most important to them.

 

[Cagey]

When I was doing it by hand, it took roughly 1 1/2 hours to get to where I was happy. About 2 years ago, I tried it using a 4x4 D/A palm sander, and was happy with the results so I've been doing it that way ever since. Still takes about 45 minutes. Part of it is consumed just by changing papers. I go through 6-7 different grits ranging from 400 to 2000, and each change takes a couple/few minutes. Plus, the paper gets pretty much consumed by the process, so you wouldn't speed anything up by having multiple sanders already loaded - they'd still need to be reloaded with fresh paper for each neck. You start getting into the "mythical man-hour" problem, where parallel processes don't improve on a serial process. Example I've always like is baby-making. Takes 9 months for 1 woman to bring a baby to term, but that doesn't mean that 9 women could make a baby in 1 month :laughing7:

It's just a time-consuming process, and that's unlikely to change. Time is money, and the market will only bear so much cost on a given part before seeking out alternatives. Trying to work around that reality is a good way to go out of business.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Well let me be clear I am not trying to tell Warmoth how to run it's business. Nor do I want to pay an extra $40+ to burnish a roasted maple neck. I can watch a bad movie and do the sanding myself.

But I also think that the technology exists for machines to do this work. I don't know if a machine exists yet to do this but the technology is clearly there. The machine, if and when it is available, may costs a lot more than current machines and may drive up the cost of a Warmoth neck, which I am against. I like Warmoth's prices and don't want to see them go up. But if a burnished neck feels as good as everyone says on this forum then someone will get a machine that does it and  start selling those neck at some point. That is just how technology and capitalism works.

In the meantime I am convinced that a burnished maple neck is fantastic so I will most likely order one next month and use it as is for a couple of months and then busnish it so I can join the club.

 

[AirCap]

You remind me of the kids who used to come in my shop and waste my time asking, "What's the best wood for a guitar?", "What's the best pickup?", "Can you show me how to build a guitar this afternoon?", "Why don't you do it like Fender or Gibson?", "Why can't I play better?", etc.

You are full of questions, and once you have our legit and informed answers - you call bullshit, and say you know better (but have no proof).

 

[Cagey]

Now, now. Play nice! We didn't all come to the party knowing everything we'd ever need to know about the subject at hand. Everybody has to gather knowledge from someplace, and one of the purposes of this forum is to teach. Even professors get a new crop of students every year, so there's bound to be some repetition here and there.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Aircap I appreciate people sharing their knowledge with me. If my questions frustrate you then I suggest you just not answer them in the future and let others answer if they wish.

At one point IBM was the most important computer company in the world. Then someone asked how about building personal computers that individuals can own and use. IBM thought that was a dumb idea because they couldn't see how or why any individual would ever want or need a home computer. So Microsoft and Apple were born. Today if you go into the hospital for a major operation parts of some operations are done exclusively by machines. This is the future of our technology.  Now someone has discovered roasting guitar bodies and neck something unheard of a few years ago, as far as I know, and all I'm asking is what else can be done to a roasted neck to make it better and what would it cost.

I own a few guitars made by major manufacturers but I have a real strong desire to sell them and in the future only play guitars that I have assembled customized just for me. And I don't want many electric guitars just a couple so they need to have all the features best for me. So I am trying to examine and research each part of a guitar, woods, finishes, necks, fret sizes, which pickups, pots and capacitors. So I am asking many questions here and other places and do appreciate the help.

 

[Logrinn]

And I don't want many electric guitars just a couple so they need to have all the features best for me.

Well, no matter how much combined wisdom can be found here - and it’s a lot - noone will know what is best for you. Only you know that.
The thing with guitars is that it’s also very much a thing of taste. It’s a question of what you first felt comfortable with when you first started playing all those years ago.
There are guitars with 24 frets and smooth neck-heal joints and cutaways that allows for extreme shredding. And still Yngwie uses a Strat with 21 frets, the very ”blocky” neck-heal joint and the standard cutaway. And an old fashion tremolo.
And with that he managed to rewrite guitar playing history.
So he has all the best features for him in his guitar - which is basically an ordinary Strat (sans the scalloping).

 

[Cagey]

Sometimes it's embarrassing to see what the pros play compared to what you think are features that can't be compromised without those abilities being out of reach. I know I look at some of the "signature" guitars and think I wouldn't take one of those on a bad bet, yet the guys whose guitars they're supposed to be identical to are saying "this is what I use to play the songs you're you're trying to cover".

 

[Sovereign_13]

Well, no matter how much combined wisdom can be found here - and it’s a lot - noone will know what is best for you. Only you know that.

And this right here is another large part of why Warmoth probably won't start selling pre-burnished necks, aside from the money aspect (although it is related, as are all things in business, to the money aspect).

Warmoth sells parts, and what you do with the parts you've purchased is up to you.  Who decides how "burnished" is "burnished enough"?  At what point do you stop?  You might like your neck burnished to glass-type smoothness.  I might like mine a little "grittier".  So do they make it a little grittier, and then you have to burnish it the rest of the way?  Or do they send me a super-polished neck that I have to knock down with some rougher sandpaper?  Who's going to pay extra for a feature they have to fine-tune either way?

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Sovereign that is a good point how much is enough and how much is too much.And there is no way to know unless you sample at each stage to see what feels great and what is too far. So I will burnish my own neck to find out what is good for me.

I may open a new thread asking who feels now that they have their own custom build guitar that the major manufacturers models just don't measure up.