Why are so many guitars (especially Strats and LP's) commonly wired like this?

[oldmanriver]

On a lot of guitars when you have both pickups selected (assuming it's a two-pickup guitar), any of the knobs that are allegedly dedicated to only
one if them will effect both of them. It seems pretty pointless to have different knobs for each pickup if you're going to wire them like that. This is
especially redundant on Les Pauls. Why wouldn't guitar manufacturers assume that most players would prefer tone or volume knobs that act completely
independently with the pickup to witch they are assigned? I've never played a guitar that is wired like that, so I don't know about any disadvantages it
might create, but it seems like being able to , say, roll down the tone on the bridge pickup while playing the neck and bridge would give you lots of options
tonally. Are there any disadvantages to this? Does it perhaps hurt the overall sound or something? Let's hear some thoughts.

 

[line6man]

The problem is the nature of passive wiring. Tone controls operate parallel to the signal path, so when you use two together, they both act as masters. The only way around it, without active buffering, is to isolate them by putting series resistance between the signal paths, which obviously kills the output/treble. With volumes, usually rolling one down too far decreases the output impedance too much, because it's preferable to use the wiper terminals of the pots as outputs, to keep a constant impedance against the pickups from the volume pot.

Guitars have the issues they do, because there isn't much you can do about it without the aid of active components, and even then, there are compromises. For that reason, I think having multiple tone pots is stupid. But I do like having multiple volumes to match volumes between pickups of different output levels when I solo them. That's really the only reason to have two or more volume pots.

 

[tfarny]

All true - but then again if you are not using both together, and are switching back and forth, it could be useful. I am now firmly in the one volume one tone camp, though, after messing around with many different setups.

 

[Strat Avenger]

I don't know, but give me one volume knob, one selector switch, and no tone controls any day over that crap.

 

[Cagey]

Many things that are done with guitars are done the way they are because that's the way they've always been done. Has nothing to do with being correct, practical, etc. Control schemes are one of those things. Ideally, with passive components you would have one volume and one tone on the output. Switch the pickups however you want, but your output level and frequency response are always adjusted with the same knobs in the same place. It's easier to live with, less expensive, more reliable, etc.

 

[Steve_Karl]

There's a good reason for 2 vol. 2 tone on a Les Paul and wired like a stock 60's LP.

2 examples with pickup switch in the middle:
Bridge tone to zero, all others to 10.
Now begin to decrease the volume of the bridge until you hear the neck pup begin to brighten up.

Now do the reverse starting with the neck tone to zero.

You'll hear the difference ... ~~~if~~~ ... you can appreciate subtlety.
The above even gets more interesting with a phase switch on one pup.

My next build, superstrat with 2 HB pups, will be 2 concentric pots ( vol / vol and tone / tone )
master volume, gibson style 3 way selector switch, mini toggle phase switch.

 

[Strat Avenger]

There's a good reason for 2 vol. 2 tone on a Les Paul and wired like a stock 60's LP.

2 examples with pickup switch in the middle:
Bridge tone to zero, all others to 10.
Now begin to decrease the volume of the bridge until you hear the neck pup begin to brighten up.

Now do the reverse starting with the neck tone to zero.

You'll hear the difference ... ~~~if~~~ ... you can appreciate subtlety.
The above even gets more interesting with a phase switch on one pup.

My next build, superstrat with 2 HB pups, will be 2 concentric pots ( vol / vol and tone / tone )
master volume, gibson style 3 way selector switch, mini toggle phase switch.

Another "knob fiddler".    :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Cagey]

There seem to be a lot of them.

 

[bagman67]

I am not a knob-fiddler, but watching Steve Morse play is quite a lesson in what can be done by a guy who knows what's what on the control panel of his guitar.  The guy's playing the most mindblowing stuff, and simultaneously micro-adjusting his volume and tone knobs, switching pickups depending on where he's playing on the neck, and tapdancing his @ss off on his pedalboard.

Makes me sick.

 

[Cagey]

We should crush his hands.

 

[bagman67]

We should crush his hands.

Naah.  In three months he'd just be doing it with his toes, and who would have the last laugh then?

 

[Cagey]

The Spiders From Mars.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

On a lot of guitars when you have both pickups selected (assuming it's a two-pickup guitar), any of the knobs that are allegedly dedicated to only
one if them will effect both of them. It seems pretty pointless to have different knobs for each pickup if you're going to wire them like that. This is
especially redundant on Les Pauls. Why wouldn't guitar manufacturers assume that most players would prefer tone or volume knobs that act completely
independently with the pickup to witch they are assigned? I've never played a guitar that is wired like that, so I don't know about any disadvantages it
might create, but it seems like being able to , say, roll down the tone on the bridge pickup while playing the neck and bridge would give you lots of options
tonally. Are there any disadvantages to this? Does it perhaps hurt the overall sound or something? Let's hear some thoughts.

Tone knobs withstanding, the volume thing on Les Pauls I find weird.  I would want the volumes to be independent so one could find a good mix of the 2 pickups when in the middle position, essentially treating the 2 volumes like a pan knob - and some are wired that way.  Also, there are those that like each extreme of the toggle switch to be different volumes so it is a quick on the fly volume and tone switch, but in the middle position, either volume acts like a master volume - many are wired that way.  I'm always surprised too when I ask supposed gearheads and they are unaware of the 2 ways or which one theirs is.  They could/should have a single volume and tone knob because it's lost on them.

 

[Jusatele]

try a 335 and you will scream, been years since I played a Paul so I cannot say if they are the same
but have both pickups on with a 335 and roll down the volume to off on either and both roll off.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

try a 335 and you will scream, been years since I played a Paul so I cannot say if they are the same
but have both pickups on with a 335 and roll down the volume to off on either and both roll off.

With the toggle in the middle I'm guessing.  Yes, I prefer the other where they are independent.  On your 335, in the middle, either acted as a master volume when rolling off. 

 

[Jusatele]

It is frustrating, but I am told it is standard 335 wiring

 

[stubhead]

I grew up playing with that, my first decent guitar was an SG with V/T, V/T and a 3-way. Once/if you get used to it, the array of tones you can get is amazing. Somebody mentioned Steve Morse, and for another object lesson of what can be accomplished with the 4 knob/3-way setup listen very carefully to Duane Allman's solo on the Fillmore version of "Elizabeth Reed." It's all right there for you.

It's usually the people who say they "don't use the tone knobs anyway" that find them confusing. If you set your amp to sound it's absolute best with all your knobs at 10, the only thing you can do with them is sound softer and/or suckier. I set the amp to sound best with my guitar controls at: neck pickup at 7 volume and 10 tone and the bridge pickup at 7 and 7, and keep the switch in between. Starting from that point, you have a huge variety of tones to work with. If you want more bite, turn down the neck pickup a bit. If you want a rounder sound, turn down the bridge pickup. You may even find it's worth it to drop the neck pickup's tone to 5 or so, just so you can dial in the roundness. And of course, all your volumes are only on SEVEN.... :evil4:

I've put this setup on both my Warmoth so-called "Mustang" and my Warmoth so-called "Telecaster" using concentric V/T pots and a three-way switch  (my "Telecaster" has a Lawrence L500XL in the bridge which has it's own 5-way switch for either coil, and both coils in series, parallel and out-of-phase, though that last one never gets used.) What I find is that I rarely, if ever, use the THREE-WAY - it lives in the middle. When you turn the neck pickup's volume down to 3 or 4, it effectively takes it's self out of the way of the bridge PU, and vice versa.

And if you're one of those people who find knobs too confusing, it may be a symptom of something. All you have to do is look at some videos of Jimmy Page, Duane Allman, Jimi Hendrix, John Scofield, Jeff Beck, Eric Johnson, Chet Atkins, Michael Amott... there are a lot more great guitarists who have learned what the knobs can do then there are great ones who don't know how to use them. Just... break out your nastiest fuzz tone crank the gain on it, set it's tone at 12 o'clock, and feed it a neck pickup with the tone at 0, maybe 3. Yikes!

 

[Jusatele]

thanks Stub
I am used to one and one, I just needed advice on how to set it up