Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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Pretty self explanatory. Who does it? Who used to do it, and why did they stop?
Who bi-amps their bass rig?
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In the studio, I'll have two bass rigs running for a bass tone. One through a Sansamp Bass Driver DI and one through a very distorted guitar rig, usually a Bogner Ecstasy. During clean sections, I'll cut the distorted tone, obviously.
Live, why bother with an amp and cab? At the ridiculous volume of most loud gigs, nobody's able to tell the difference between an Ampeg SVT Classic and a Behringer, so I don't understand why you wouldn't just go DI. I have helped to move an Ampeg 8x10 cab. I will never do so again.
Live, why bother with an amp and cab? At the ridiculous volume of most loud gigs, nobody's able to tell the difference between an Ampeg SVT Classic and a Behringer, so I don't understand why you wouldn't just go DI. I have helped to move an Ampeg 8x10 cab. I will never do so again.
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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I actually prefer the opposite approach. In the studio, I go direct in, manipulating everyting at the console. For live playing, most venues are small enough there is no PA assistance and low stage volume. I've been lucky in that my guitar player has cared more about how the band sounded than how he sounded. Him turning down has often been his idea. I do agree for large venues and loud stage volume, rig matters little because the audience hears the house PA.
I was wondering because in my case, it would not be hard to do as I already have 2 cabs, both of which receiving the full range signal. By crossing over, each cab could specialize in carrying an intended frequency range.
I was wondering because in my case, it would not be hard to do as I already have 2 cabs, both of which receiving the full range signal. By crossing over, each cab could specialize in carrying an intended frequency range.
I prefer the small and simple approach, as years of lugging gear around has made me realise a few things ...
1) if the club is big enough that my bass is going to be in the PA, my rig is usually DI'ed to the PA, and just becomes a stage monitor for me.
2) if the club is smaller, such that the guitar and bass amps become what the audience hears, I found that a nice, tight 2x10 or 4x10 puts out enough bottom, and is still tight. Bi-amping with the lows going through a 15 or an 18 would not only be overkill, it would end up (usually) drowing out the small PA, which would have just vocals and maybe the kick and snare.
In the studio, I'll mic my cab, take the DI out of the amp, and DI the bass itself, then decide in the mix. Even that is usually too much, as I end up using the mic'ed cab and either the bass or amp DI, and lose the other of that pair. But options are always nice. However, bi-amping in the studio, and mic'ing both cabs is (IMHO) a waste of time.
1) if the club is big enough that my bass is going to be in the PA, my rig is usually DI'ed to the PA, and just becomes a stage monitor for me.
2) if the club is smaller, such that the guitar and bass amps become what the audience hears, I found that a nice, tight 2x10 or 4x10 puts out enough bottom, and is still tight. Bi-amping with the lows going through a 15 or an 18 would not only be overkill, it would end up (usually) drowing out the small PA, which would have just vocals and maybe the kick and snare.
In the studio, I'll mic my cab, take the DI out of the amp, and DI the bass itself, then decide in the mix. Even that is usually too much, as I end up using the mic'ed cab and either the bass or amp DI, and lose the other of that pair. But options are always nice. However, bi-amping in the studio, and mic'ing both cabs is (IMHO) a waste of time.
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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I don't see how bi-amping a rig would drown out a small PA if it didn't before hand. The bass rig is still the same amount of watts. All it would do, in theory, is separate the signal and send it to specialized, dedicated cabs instead of cramming the full signal out of both cabs. If anything it would eliminate muddiness. That's the whole reasoning behind 2-way cabs being paired with subs for PAs. They do a better job than a 3-way speaker PA cab.
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom said:
I guess I should qualify "small" .... I'm talking about a couple of JBLs with 12" woofers and a horn on stands. The kind that start to feed back at even moderate volumes.
In a situation like that, the band volume would be moderate at best. While a bi-amped rig would definately add more "boom"; ..... perhaps I should have said "overpower" rather than "drown out" in my last post. Yes, you can always turn down, but that sub is going to need power to be heard.
I used to do it (maybe a dozen years ago). Had a Hartke rig with their bi-amp head, a 210 and a 410. I sure did like the way ot sounded, but as time passed I am less inclined to hump the extra cabinet. I started with an Eden 212XLT and have now been using and Aguilar GS212 for some years. It gives me all I need for the venues we do, including outdoor stuff. We typically don't reinforce and use the stage level only.
Hell, if I still had the back for it I'd be using an SVT.....
Hell, if I still had the back for it I'd be using an SVT.....
My older brother is 58 years old and drags in an SVT 8x10 cab and a Mesa 400+ head to the 2 different jam nights we host every week. You can feel that thing breathing behind you like a very large animal all night. I guess he's just not ready to give up that feeling quite yet. :headbang:
Strat Avenger
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We used to bi-amp my ex-wife's bass rig. It sounded killer. I discovered that it did not sound good to cross over the 4x10 cab, so what I did was just cross over the 1x15 for low frequencies only, and run the 4x10 in full-range. Crossing over both cabs (high/low respectively) made the 4x10 sound too thin.
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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Now we're talking. I've considered this as well.
I DO! ^_^
I run dual outputs on my W Jag. I actually stole the idea from Billy Sheehan. a Dimarzio mudbucker goes to one output and to one amp and cab EQ'd for lows and slight low mids, and a Dimarzio P and X2N-7 goes to a separate amp and cab and EQ'd for mids and highs. it's thunder and cuts through like a knife. I can never own/play a bass with single outputs. I don't really understand why this hasn't gotten more popular.
I run dual outputs on my W Jag. I actually stole the idea from Billy Sheehan. a Dimarzio mudbucker goes to one output and to one amp and cab EQ'd for lows and slight low mids, and a Dimarzio P and X2N-7 goes to a separate amp and cab and EQ'd for mids and highs. it's thunder and cuts through like a knife. I can never own/play a bass with single outputs. I don't really understand why this hasn't gotten more popular.
SkuttleFunk
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I used to bi-amp into a 210T + 115 sub ... and never really liked it. utilizing an 18" sub on the bottom only made things worse to my ears
these days I run an Avatar 210 Pro for most everything, and when I need something a little larger I add an Avatar 112 sub to the bottom with both cabs running full range. I definitely like how the 112 provides just enough bottom end to the sound, but it never overwhelms a room such that the bass loses definition and becomes a mush of undefined mud (like happens with 15's and 18's)
I also run my volume pretty low so as to utilize the house sound system via any number of direct boxes for the FoH mix
all the best,
R
these days I run an Avatar 210 Pro for most everything, and when I need something a little larger I add an Avatar 112 sub to the bottom with both cabs running full range. I definitely like how the 112 provides just enough bottom end to the sound, but it never overwhelms a room such that the bass loses definition and becomes a mush of undefined mud (like happens with 15's and 18's)
I also run my volume pretty low so as to utilize the house sound system via any number of direct boxes for the FoH mix
all the best,
R
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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Wow! I am running a similar, if not identical, cab set up. An Avatar 210 and 112 both receiving full range signal. So, the 112 wouldn't benefit from carrying just the lowend, in your opinion?
The 112 has a horn in the cab, and I found this puzzling. I don't think the 112 could ever be a stand alone cab, yet they put a horn in it. It seems whatever the 112 was paired with, the other cab would carry the highs and take advantage of the horn. When ordering I asked about disconnecting the horn of the 112, as I'd read reviews where turning it all the way down would actually damage it. He said disconnecting it and isolating the leads with non-conductive tape would work. Upon looking at the crossover assembly of the cab for the horn, the speaker comes out of the crossover, and at a glance looks to be a series type connection and the crossover affects both the horn and driver. I thought it would be parallel, as he suggested the crossover only affects the horn and not the driver. Could be wrong. I have yet to remove the crossover altogether and try just hardwiring the driver directly to the jack(s).
Not too impressed with the "dryer lint" looking baffle foam that it came with, I've also been considering just adding a bit of foam to the 112's innards, as this would lower the frequency response a hair.
The 112 has a horn in the cab, and I found this puzzling. I don't think the 112 could ever be a stand alone cab, yet they put a horn in it. It seems whatever the 112 was paired with, the other cab would carry the highs and take advantage of the horn. When ordering I asked about disconnecting the horn of the 112, as I'd read reviews where turning it all the way down would actually damage it. He said disconnecting it and isolating the leads with non-conductive tape would work. Upon looking at the crossover assembly of the cab for the horn, the speaker comes out of the crossover, and at a glance looks to be a series type connection and the crossover affects both the horn and driver. I thought it would be parallel, as he suggested the crossover only affects the horn and not the driver. Could be wrong. I have yet to remove the crossover altogether and try just hardwiring the driver directly to the jack(s).
Not too impressed with the "dryer lint" looking baffle foam that it came with, I've also been considering just adding a bit of foam to the 112's innards, as this would lower the frequency response a hair.
SkuttleFunk
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I gave this set-up a shot at bi-amping, but it just sounded thin and anemic ... I'm not an audio engineer, but my guess is that running both cabs at full range achieves some sort of acoustic coupling that really rounds out the sound - a very nice, tight, snappy bottom end without the woof and flop that you'd have with a 15" or 18".
the key to understanding that this was right the perfect combo was wearing a wireless out into the room during sound check. the 12" sub filled the room with musically defined lows, and swapping to a 15" sub immediately changed to room into a confusing, mushy bottomed mess. granted, I don't usually use this rig as the sole source for filling bass into a room - that's what the PA is for - but for cases where I need to provide the bottom because the PA is maxed attempting to carry just the vocals, this is definitely the rig I always heard in my head (and spent too many needless $$$ trying to obtain with expensive name brand cabs)
I also have to horn all the way down on the 12, and set about 40% up on the 210.
my rig is a reflection of an experience I had at a show in the mid-90's ... this concert still to this day sets the bar for how a bass can simly dominate the bottom end with clear definition and yet not overpower anything or be tromped on by keyboards or guitarists playing with 12" cabs. I talked with the bassist after the show (had to wait over 90 to catch him out back while the crew was loading the gear into the semi. I asked what his secret was for getting such a killer mix, and he shared that he cuts 90% of everything below 50Hz :sad: really? I asked. yep, he replied. he then shared some on how our ear hears low frequency sounds, and how we don't really hear the fundimental on those super low notes - our brain interprets the overtones we hear and then assembles it into us thinking we hear a fundimental. sending a signal to the house with this kind of EQ let him play loud in the mix without overwhelming the room with rumble. a real :sign13: moment for me, and how I mix my signal in my reference and to the FoH to this day. I've had several people comment on how good of a tone I have in the mix, and how I achieve it when other bassists using the same gear in the samehouse with the same mixing tech can get only mud for their mix. sadly, most bassists I share this with refuse to give up their kidney rumble on stage and pay the price in the FoH mix :dontknow:
al the best,
R
the key to understanding that this was right the perfect combo was wearing a wireless out into the room during sound check. the 12" sub filled the room with musically defined lows, and swapping to a 15" sub immediately changed to room into a confusing, mushy bottomed mess. granted, I don't usually use this rig as the sole source for filling bass into a room - that's what the PA is for - but for cases where I need to provide the bottom because the PA is maxed attempting to carry just the vocals, this is definitely the rig I always heard in my head (and spent too many needless $$$ trying to obtain with expensive name brand cabs)
I also have to horn all the way down on the 12, and set about 40% up on the 210.
my rig is a reflection of an experience I had at a show in the mid-90's ... this concert still to this day sets the bar for how a bass can simly dominate the bottom end with clear definition and yet not overpower anything or be tromped on by keyboards or guitarists playing with 12" cabs. I talked with the bassist after the show (had to wait over 90 to catch him out back while the crew was loading the gear into the semi. I asked what his secret was for getting such a killer mix, and he shared that he cuts 90% of everything below 50Hz :sad: really? I asked. yep, he replied. he then shared some on how our ear hears low frequency sounds, and how we don't really hear the fundimental on those super low notes - our brain interprets the overtones we hear and then assembles it into us thinking we hear a fundimental. sending a signal to the house with this kind of EQ let him play loud in the mix without overwhelming the room with rumble. a real :sign13: moment for me, and how I mix my signal in my reference and to the FoH to this day. I've had several people comment on how good of a tone I have in the mix, and how I achieve it when other bassists using the same gear in the samehouse with the same mixing tech can get only mud for their mix. sadly, most bassists I share this with refuse to give up their kidney rumble on stage and pay the price in the FoH mix :dontknow:
al the best,
R
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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That's actually really helpful. I am wanting the defined low-end. I prefer the scooped mid sound, it's very pleasing to the ear when by oneself but is too muddy sounding with many bands and many venues. Just to boomy and not defined. The alternative is the boosted mids, a great sound, but not for me. 50 hz is pretty low to begin with, so cut 90% of the stuff below that, huh? I'll give that a go, with a wireless.
SkuttleFunk
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cool
while it may not sound killer running solo by your amp, your sound tech (if they're competent) is going to love you and you should find yourself suddenly very present in the overall FoH mix. I'll be following this thread to see how your experiment goes
FWIW I played out tonight with just my 210 set like I noted earlier, and it was another great FoH mix ... the sound tech had the subs pumping (he was actually rattling the ceiling, walls, and lighting), and the bass was tight and full :hello2:
all the best,
R
while it may not sound killer running solo by your amp, your sound tech (if they're competent) is going to love you and you should find yourself suddenly very present in the overall FoH mix. I'll be following this thread to see how your experiment goes
FWIW I played out tonight with just my 210 set like I noted earlier, and it was another great FoH mix ... the sound tech had the subs pumping (he was actually rattling the ceiling, walls, and lighting), and the bass was tight and full :hello2:
all the best,
R
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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Well, thanks for the interest, but you may be waiting a while. No gigs in the immediate future. However, when I do play we run the gambit of PAs and sound people. For the smallest venues, just a powered mixer carrying vocals, acoustic guitar, and kick drum. Amps and stage volume is the room volume. Bigger outdoor gigs with our own PA and ahem, us as soundmen, (2) 2x15 towers w/horn and (2) 1x18 subs. Others with a sound guy could be whatever. I've found it best to just give the sound guy the pre-EQ send from my DI, as the post-EQ even with level adjust and padded at the board is really, really hot.
Super Turbo Deluxe Custom
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Okay, gave the cutting 90% of everything below 50hz a try. Didn't have my wireless hooked up, so the guitar player went across the room and gave the whole band a listen during sound check. 1st off, he told me turn up and to turn the bass up because it was all mids. The rest of the band didn't care for it. I'm subbing in for another bass player, and this band likes the big, wet sound of muddy scooped mids. They'd rather have me shake the floor with muddiness than be articulate. Then again, I just need the E and A string to play this band's bass lines. I'll give it another go with another band soon to hear it in a full band context.
thunderchild888
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