What limits can a customshop put on their lineup
- Thread starter Orpheo
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Ace Flibble
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As someone who's gone down this path himself, as well as having had dealings with damn near every custom shop and parts company on the planet, I say stick with what you feel is right. If somebody asks for something completely out of line with what you think a guitar should have, don't take on that job.
However, don't tell them "no way, you're crazy" or "I can't do that". Explain to them that you won't do that because it doesn't fit in with your model line and if they ask why you think it doesn't suit a guitar, calmly explain to them that you like guitars a certain way and you wouldn't want to make a guitar you wouldn't want to play yourself. That is the best get-out line you can ever use, even if actually you just don't want to do it because it would take too long or it would cost too much or whatever. Never do the Fender Custom Shop thing of telling a customer that they are wrong to want a guitar a certain way. Just say that it's not your style and suggest other companies who may suit them better.
Ultimately, there are a couple of things you absolutely do need to be able to accommodate. You're not a custom shop if you only do one body style, only use one type of wood, only install one type of pickup, etc. 'Custom' does imply a degree of choice wider than a customer can get from off-the-shelf models. Something about your guitars does need to be unique and does need to be something that people want but is not already being covered by other people. Feline don't just make a copy of a Gibson Les Paul; they throw in a sculpted heel, sometimes a rib contour, and additional switching. The ESP Custom Shop doesn't just run the ESP Standard series in limited edition colours, they'll make up a whole new body shape for you. Fender's Custom Shop... actually does nothing unique, is the most hilariously overpriced and elitist of the bunch and is the most uptight about doing 'unusual' things. Which is probably why they see the least business of any of the major brands' custom shops and why parts companies like Warmoth and USACG do so well instead.
When I was getting into my own guitar line, what I wanted to produce was three basic models with some inherent differences compared to their more famous counterparts—e.g. the prototype of my carved top, set neck, single cutaway guitar had a much thinner body, a deeper cutaway, a very different control arrangement and a 4/2 headstock—and then on top of that, a few basic options people could choose from, such as pickup model and a couple of types of inlay, with the finish being the only truly anything-you-want custom option. After a couple of years of market research and talking to Korean and European factories, the upshot was that that was too much choice to make a profit on whilst keeping the cost to the customer low enough to actually get people interested. To get the customer's cost to where I was comfortable, I had to restrict things to the same pickups and inlays on all models and finishes went from totally custom to just a choice of five. In the end I decided that it simply wasn't worth pursuing: if I can't give people what they want without charging them a small fortune, I didn't see the point in making the line at all. Financially it would be too hard to keep afloat and I've never been happy with the prices people are asked to pay just to get what should be, in my eyes, a fairly simple and reasonable modification or choice.
Now, from the sound of it, you're not looking to work with big factories and produce a whole product line, but for me, the sentiment is the same:
Don't just make what people can already buy from established brands. There has to be something unique that only you offer.
A custom shop that offers no choice is not a custom shop. You have to be willing to work with your customers.
Don't try to cover so many options you can't make the business work the way you want it to. If a request compromises your work ethic or simply doesn't make sense financially, don't do it.
However, don't tell them "no way, you're crazy" or "I can't do that". Explain to them that you won't do that because it doesn't fit in with your model line and if they ask why you think it doesn't suit a guitar, calmly explain to them that you like guitars a certain way and you wouldn't want to make a guitar you wouldn't want to play yourself. That is the best get-out line you can ever use, even if actually you just don't want to do it because it would take too long or it would cost too much or whatever. Never do the Fender Custom Shop thing of telling a customer that they are wrong to want a guitar a certain way. Just say that it's not your style and suggest other companies who may suit them better.
Ultimately, there are a couple of things you absolutely do need to be able to accommodate. You're not a custom shop if you only do one body style, only use one type of wood, only install one type of pickup, etc. 'Custom' does imply a degree of choice wider than a customer can get from off-the-shelf models. Something about your guitars does need to be unique and does need to be something that people want but is not already being covered by other people. Feline don't just make a copy of a Gibson Les Paul; they throw in a sculpted heel, sometimes a rib contour, and additional switching. The ESP Custom Shop doesn't just run the ESP Standard series in limited edition colours, they'll make up a whole new body shape for you. Fender's Custom Shop... actually does nothing unique, is the most hilariously overpriced and elitist of the bunch and is the most uptight about doing 'unusual' things. Which is probably why they see the least business of any of the major brands' custom shops and why parts companies like Warmoth and USACG do so well instead.
When I was getting into my own guitar line, what I wanted to produce was three basic models with some inherent differences compared to their more famous counterparts—e.g. the prototype of my carved top, set neck, single cutaway guitar had a much thinner body, a deeper cutaway, a very different control arrangement and a 4/2 headstock—and then on top of that, a few basic options people could choose from, such as pickup model and a couple of types of inlay, with the finish being the only truly anything-you-want custom option. After a couple of years of market research and talking to Korean and European factories, the upshot was that that was too much choice to make a profit on whilst keeping the cost to the customer low enough to actually get people interested. To get the customer's cost to where I was comfortable, I had to restrict things to the same pickups and inlays on all models and finishes went from totally custom to just a choice of five. In the end I decided that it simply wasn't worth pursuing: if I can't give people what they want without charging them a small fortune, I didn't see the point in making the line at all. Financially it would be too hard to keep afloat and I've never been happy with the prices people are asked to pay just to get what should be, in my eyes, a fairly simple and reasonable modification or choice.
Now, from the sound of it, you're not looking to work with big factories and produce a whole product line, but for me, the sentiment is the same:
Don't just make what people can already buy from established brands. There has to be something unique that only you offer.
A custom shop that offers no choice is not a custom shop. You have to be willing to work with your customers.
Don't try to cover so many options you can't make the business work the way you want it to. If a request compromises your work ethic or simply doesn't make sense financially, don't do it.
TonyFlyingSquirrel
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Good comments.
A friend of mine who has his own product line only builds guitars using chrome hardware from one single manufacturer, simplifies is his minimum order requirements while ensuring that he won't have an overage or underage of Gold or Black hardware.
A friend of mine who has his own product line only builds guitars using chrome hardware from one single manufacturer, simplifies is his minimum order requirements while ensuring that he won't have an overage or underage of Gold or Black hardware.
Cagey
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As counterintuitive as it sounds, sometimes passing on a sale can be a Good Thing.
I worked for a software engineering house some years back where the boss was loathe to let any job get by us. Hated to leave money on the table. But, it happened too often that we'd get work that we lost our asses on for various reasons, and eventually the firm went tits-up.
I worked for a software engineering house some years back where the boss was loathe to let any job get by us. Hated to leave money on the table. But, it happened too often that we'd get work that we lost our asses on for various reasons, and eventually the firm went tits-up.
zebra
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I don't have too much to add - all of the previous posts were great. I would just say that there's a dichotomy between the "we can do anything/everything" and "I have a vision I want to share with the guitar world." It sounds like you belong to the latter. If that's the case, know what you do, do it well, and the people you want to sell guitars to will be interested.
Good luck - I'm really looking forward to you getting your site up!
Good luck - I'm really looking forward to you getting your site up!
Gentlemen, you all have been a major help 
I knew I could count on you.
Currently, I'm offering this:
LP shape (always carved top; either a top + back or just a 2 or 1 piece 'body'): maple, ziricote, purpleheart, flamed ash or walnut tops on korina, ash or mahogany backs (the non-topped bodies are ash, alder or mahogany). with or without chambering, with or without F-Holes (chambering is +30$, F-holes is +30$ a piece: sorry, that shit takes A LOT of time! no CNC, all handwork). Necks are either rosewood or maple, 1 or 3 piece (no charge). padouk, purpleheart, bubinga and ebony are also available.
ToneMachine (pun on 'blackmachine): ash body (1 or 2 piece, flamed or regular: depends on what I have in stock). 3 piece maple neck (flamed optional).
ToneMachine Classic (like ToneMachine but with 22 frets, thicker body and a trem): same as above.
I also have 2 other unnamed models: my own singlecut (available as bass or guitar, carved or flattop) and a 'double horned' model like the SG (flattop). Same options as the Tonemachine.
Colors: anything BUT a solid color.
Pickups: anything from the Seymour Duncan or Bareknuckle lineup
Hardware: anything from the Hipshot lineup: locking tuners are standard, non negotiable (cause I HATE putting on strings; locking tuners make it easier for me. And coincidentally, they keep their tuning better...).
Electronics: on LP's: 4 pots 1 switch (either a 5 way blade or 3 way toggle). On the flattops: 3 way toggle or 6 way toggle, but not limited to this. Electronics is the easy stuff.
What's non-negotiable are the following specs.
Ebony headstock cap
Ebony fretboard (ONLY on ultra-rare occasions will I use something else, but that's really, really rare).
Timber knobs (turned from the cut-offs of the body or neck or both, to minimize waste)
Handrubbed shellac finish (all organic and natural to minimize our ecological footprint)
Pinstripes between neck and fretboard and between headstock and head cap.
I try to match the pinstripes, knobs and cover plates as best as I can. If not, it's ebony plates + knobs and pinstripe of choice.
I have two 3x3 headstock styles (narrow and wide) and two 6-in-line headstock styles on offer, no charge. Three heel shapes (wide, regular and slim; depends on how far you wanna go up the neck), no charge, tummy cut, no charge. Forearm contour blended in the carved front of the guitar, no charge.
So, yeah. I do think that I'm a customshop with A LOT of options, most of which at no charge, but there are limits. I won't do inlay for example as a standard choice. You want it, fine. I'll do it but at significant cost (it starts at 200$). Binding is omitted, too, but if you want it, fine: 200$ is where it begins.
Strangely enough, that doesn't persuade people to not choose those options: in fact, it enforces their wish to get binding. Very odd.
I'll do any and all pickup configurations (H/p90/p90, HSH, H H H, H H, H S S or whatever you can conjure) at no charge besides the cost of wiring and the pickup (unless the guitar is already spec'd for 3 pickups by default).
So... am I missing something?
P.S. Website will come online in the fall. Finally.
I knew I could count on you. Currently, I'm offering this:
LP shape (always carved top; either a top + back or just a 2 or 1 piece 'body'): maple, ziricote, purpleheart, flamed ash or walnut tops on korina, ash or mahogany backs (the non-topped bodies are ash, alder or mahogany). with or without chambering, with or without F-Holes (chambering is +30$, F-holes is +30$ a piece: sorry, that shit takes A LOT of time! no CNC, all handwork). Necks are either rosewood or maple, 1 or 3 piece (no charge). padouk, purpleheart, bubinga and ebony are also available.
ToneMachine (pun on 'blackmachine): ash body (1 or 2 piece, flamed or regular: depends on what I have in stock). 3 piece maple neck (flamed optional).
ToneMachine Classic (like ToneMachine but with 22 frets, thicker body and a trem): same as above.
I also have 2 other unnamed models: my own singlecut (available as bass or guitar, carved or flattop) and a 'double horned' model like the SG (flattop). Same options as the Tonemachine.
Colors: anything BUT a solid color.
Pickups: anything from the Seymour Duncan or Bareknuckle lineup
Hardware: anything from the Hipshot lineup: locking tuners are standard, non negotiable (cause I HATE putting on strings; locking tuners make it easier for me. And coincidentally, they keep their tuning better...).
Electronics: on LP's: 4 pots 1 switch (either a 5 way blade or 3 way toggle). On the flattops: 3 way toggle or 6 way toggle, but not limited to this. Electronics is the easy stuff.
What's non-negotiable are the following specs.
Ebony headstock cap
Ebony fretboard (ONLY on ultra-rare occasions will I use something else, but that's really, really rare).
Timber knobs (turned from the cut-offs of the body or neck or both, to minimize waste)
Handrubbed shellac finish (all organic and natural to minimize our ecological footprint)
Pinstripes between neck and fretboard and between headstock and head cap.
I try to match the pinstripes, knobs and cover plates as best as I can. If not, it's ebony plates + knobs and pinstripe of choice.
I have two 3x3 headstock styles (narrow and wide) and two 6-in-line headstock styles on offer, no charge. Three heel shapes (wide, regular and slim; depends on how far you wanna go up the neck), no charge, tummy cut, no charge. Forearm contour blended in the carved front of the guitar, no charge.
So, yeah. I do think that I'm a customshop with A LOT of options, most of which at no charge, but there are limits. I won't do inlay for example as a standard choice. You want it, fine. I'll do it but at significant cost (it starts at 200$). Binding is omitted, too, but if you want it, fine: 200$ is where it begins.
Strangely enough, that doesn't persuade people to not choose those options: in fact, it enforces their wish to get binding. Very odd.
I'll do any and all pickup configurations (H/p90/p90, HSH, H H H, H H, H S S or whatever you can conjure) at no charge besides the cost of wiring and the pickup (unless the guitar is already spec'd for 3 pickups by default).
So... am I missing something?
P.S. Website will come online in the fall. Finally.
TonyFlyingSquirrel
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I think that the unique identifier for your brand is the fingerboard pinstripe. Nice standard feature, but otherwise, some of the extensive options I'd likely jerk the reigns in on, even if you already have jigs & templates for them.
Load your page up with some "In Stock Now" photos, and wait to see what bites.
I only have two designs in the works right now, 3 if you want to consider the 7 string version of the TFS as a third, but basically, two body styles, minimal options. Still working on templates & such, but the big slowdown for me is re-tooling after so many years of being out of the game.
Load your page up with some "In Stock Now" photos, and wait to see what bites.
I only have two designs in the works right now, 3 if you want to consider the 7 string version of the TFS as a third, but basically, two body styles, minimal options. Still working on templates & such, but the big slowdown for me is re-tooling after so many years of being out of the game.
Cagey
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Sounds like a fine instrument to me. I think the only thing I'd change is the "anything but solid" finish and the hand-rubbbed shellac. Those two items can be real time sinks. The rest of it I'm not sure changes build time/complexity very much, so I wouldn't sweat it. I do like some of the non-negotiables that set you apart. For instance, locking tuners. I put those even on hardtails. Anything less just seems silly to me.
The 'any color but solid' idea works for me cause I have to buy my dye per guitar. The faux clear coat binding takes up most of my time, and in the grand scheme of things, its not that bad. Lining up a trem or routing f holes takes me significantly longer.
The shellac is fine, too, since I refuse to let a third party spray the Guitars or install a spray booth. Shellac is just easy to work with, easy to fix up and cheap. Maybe I'll change when I am doing a lot more
The pinstripes have indeed become a signature thing, combined with the clean fretboard and headstock plus Bicolor sidedots.
The shellac is fine, too, since I refuse to let a third party spray the Guitars or install a spray booth. Shellac is just easy to work with, easy to fix up and cheap. Maybe I'll change when I am doing a lot more
The pinstripes have indeed become a signature thing, combined with the clean fretboard and headstock plus Bicolor sidedots.
TonyFlyingSquirrel
Master Member
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Orpheo said:
Yup, subtle brand-centric things like this can set you apart without having to go overboard with other features.
Ace Flibble
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This is less business and more just my own taste: I'd not write off solid finishes. Lots of people like black or white with gold hardware on their custom instruments, and of course solid black has to be one of, if not the, most popular guitar finishes around. Telling people they can't have the most standard finish possible is a bit... well, it's a bit odd, to me. And that's coming from someone who hates black guitars and doesn't own a single solid-finished guitar himself.
I'd also ditch Bare Knuckle. Honestly, they may have the name, but there are so may other boutique pickup manufacturers around that can fill that role at a lower cost to both you and the customer, be more accommodating for custom models and aren't as shady as BKP at a personal level.
The rest all sounds good. As others have said and you yourself have suggested, it's maybe a little too much choice, but we don't know your actual business model and what's viable for you to pull off. As I said before, when I was looking at working with factories to do a full line, that level of choice simply couldn't work financially—it made me really appreciate why big manufacturers charge what they do and why companies like Warmoth put upcharges on nearly everything—but if you're doing this by hand yourself, well, maybe you can make it work. If my experience is anything to go by, though, I'd say just be prepared to stop offering some of those finer points if your orders start stacking up. You'll soon regret allowing chambering and f-holes when you've got five guitars to make by the end of the month :icon_thumright:
I'd also ditch Bare Knuckle. Honestly, they may have the name, but there are so may other boutique pickup manufacturers around that can fill that role at a lower cost to both you and the customer, be more accommodating for custom models and aren't as shady as BKP at a personal level.
The rest all sounds good. As others have said and you yourself have suggested, it's maybe a little too much choice, but we don't know your actual business model and what's viable for you to pull off. As I said before, when I was looking at working with factories to do a full line, that level of choice simply couldn't work financially—it made me really appreciate why big manufacturers charge what they do and why companies like Warmoth put upcharges on nearly everything—but if you're doing this by hand yourself, well, maybe you can make it work. If my experience is anything to go by, though, I'd say just be prepared to stop offering some of those finer points if your orders start stacking up. You'll soon regret allowing chambering and f-holes when you've got five guitars to make by the end of the month :icon_thumright:
slashin_velvet
Junior Member
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Probably a bit late to the discussion here, but my 2 cents:
- If they want your name/brand on the guitar, then it has to be within the ranges of what you want your brand to be
- If they want something different and you feel you can accomodate, but dont want your name on it, then tell them as much, and charge them a significant premium for it
- If they want something different and you feel you can't accomodate, then just tell them as much and send them in the direction of a luthier who can give them what they want
- Be careful with your non-negotiables. I personally wouldnt buy a custom guitar that mandated an ebony fretboard. Im sure you have your reasons for only using ebony, but if its not what I want, then ill take my money elsewhere. Same goes for the "No solid Colours" policy.
- Be willing to have customers walk away when you cant deliver exactly what they want. Many people will go for a quote and flake when they see the price - being upfront about your pricing structure can help remove time wasting customers who never intend to commit anyway, and reduce the chance of bizzarre requests that you havent laid out as options.
All the best!
- If they want your name/brand on the guitar, then it has to be within the ranges of what you want your brand to be
- If they want something different and you feel you can accomodate, but dont want your name on it, then tell them as much, and charge them a significant premium for it
- If they want something different and you feel you can't accomodate, then just tell them as much and send them in the direction of a luthier who can give them what they want
- Be careful with your non-negotiables. I personally wouldnt buy a custom guitar that mandated an ebony fretboard. Im sure you have your reasons for only using ebony, but if its not what I want, then ill take my money elsewhere. Same goes for the "No solid Colours" policy.
- Be willing to have customers walk away when you cant deliver exactly what they want. Many people will go for a quote and flake when they see the price - being upfront about your pricing structure can help remove time wasting customers who never intend to commit anyway, and reduce the chance of bizzarre requests that you havent laid out as options.
All the best!
bagman67
Epic Member
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I'm on board with the general near-consensus that simplifying your proposed menu is a good idea. Customize within parameters you commit to adhering to. One-offs are death. If you want to really make a go of being a builder and making a living at it, you have to maximize the profit margin to rise above the genteel poverty that most self-employed folks struggle to even achieve.
I will also say that you should never apologize or otherwise make concessions on price if the work is solid. Folks who can afford and recognize the quality you offer won't be put off by a big number, and folks who are put off by the number - and more importantly, who are inclined to try to haggle over it - are not the kind of customer you want.
I will also say that you should never apologize or otherwise make concessions on price if the work is solid. Folks who can afford and recognize the quality you offer won't be put off by a big number, and folks who are put off by the number - and more importantly, who are inclined to try to haggle over it - are not the kind of customer you want.
I think a lot of people chiming in are forgetting where Orpheo is. I'm pretty sure there's a mandate that if you're building guitars over there you HAVE to offer BKP's. It'd be silly not to. Same thing with guitar finishes, natural finished guitars are HUGE right now. Minimalist shred machines that are artisan crafted are what it's about. GO ORPHEO!!!!! :guitaristgif:
- Again, lots of great points. I'll try to talk about the points that stuck out for me
Bareknuckle Pickups.
That's kind-off a necessity. BKP and SD are able to promote us on their social media and the use of a bigger name who sort-off 'sponsors' us that way goes a REALLY long way to affirm us as a brand. Fralin and Lollar make great pickups, but what I want, I can get from SD or BKP for less than with those guys, sorry
Ebony FB: jet black ebony, striped ebony, leopard ebony (that's black ebony with white spots). that's what I offer. The reason is that ebony is tonally neutral, has an awesome feel and is part of the understated look I'm going for. The problem with for example rosewood or maple is that I'd need other tools to make that work due to my production process involving the fretboards. I may be persuaded to use other materials when the production is even more streamlined. But for now, only ebony, in three flavors. And if you wanna know what it is exactly: it's the dust! The tools for fretboards are really unitaskers: they're just JUST for FB's and there's ebony microdust on those tools from using ebony. If I'm going to use maple, I'll be left with LOTS and lots of ebony dust in the pores of the maple, making it look gray-ish. It will turn the rosewood dull, too. So, that's the reason. I'd have to make new tools and for now, I'm unwilling to do just that.
Solid colors. I meant opaque. If you want one single color, fine. Solid is a no-no. Reason is simple. Opaque means 'can't see what's beneath'. If you're aiming for that, I'd have to fill the pores (which is a big NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOO GOD NO!) and then I'd have to apply a base coat, then the color coat(s) and after that the clearcoats. The finish will be way, way, way too thick. And I discovered 4 things about thick lacquer.
1: It's super-super-super time consuming to apply those. And often, it's done to mask bad woods.
2: Since it's so time consuming (if you wanna do it right), it will cost yah. significantly.
3: It's a bi-atch to repair if something happens.
4: It acts as a barrier, a blockade for the body to vibrate. Yes, the body is 50 millimeters (that's 1 3/4 inches for you yanks!) and YES the vibration is like 1/10 millimeter with the lacquer being approximately as thick (that's 1/250th of an inch, give or take). But the thickness of the body is an irrelevant measurement. The thickness of the lacquer is in the same order of magnitude as the vibration, so it's like the wood is hitting a brick wall. That's why imho guitars with a superthin finish simply sound better. Even guys like Taylor agree, hence their ultrathin lacquers.
I could dye the wood super-super-dark, sure. But opaque colors are a sonic no-no.
And yes indeed, it's a major thing here, minimalistic guitars. It goes either of two ways: Either people want a vintage replica but they're too cheap or stubborn to get a Fender (kidding ) or they want a tonemonster, something designed for (their) tone in mind. And that's where I jump in.
Hope that helps to explain some of my choices?
jackthehack
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It's YOUR business, do as you wish. Let me guarantee you that any potential customer that isn't happy with the options you offer and demands special treatment will remain a in the ass going forward, this is generally true regardless of what business you're in.
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