What limits can a customshop put on their lineup

[Orpheo]

I'm having a bit of an issue and I'm not quite sure how to approach it.

The main question is: when is enough enough, when you run a customshop? Should a CS accept any and all requests or can a customshop say 'this is my lineup of instruments, these features are non-negotiable and this is the menu of options you can choose from'?

As you may know, I'm trying to build my own brand, Orpheo Guitars, and I'm getting ridiculous questions all the time and often I have to say 'no' since that inquiry simply doesn't line up with what my personal vision is of a guitar. For example, Warmoth does the same thing (but they're a ton bigger), Nik Huber has little to no customization, Feline Guitars in the UK have many options, too.

Am I wrong in saying 'I won't do this' or 'I refuse to do that'? Simply because it doesn't fit in the range, the vision I have for my company.

Let me put it another way. I want to grow to become like Frank Hartung, Feline or even Carvin: a bunch of models, each with a bunch of options but that's the end of it. I don't want to be like Crimson Guitars: accepting nearly everything, doing everything and not having a personal view concerning the instrument.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

A business exists to make a profit.
You can easily find yourself in situations where due to saying "yes" you are no longer making a profit, but are actually paying for what you said "yes" to.

I encountered this question a lot when I worked for "W".  They'd say, "since you're a custom shop, I thought you could do anything".

My reply, "A custom shop implies that far more options are available than what you would find in most other shops, but due many other contributing factors, there are limits on what we're practically able to do".  Meaning, sometimes those limits are tooling, skill, or just purely financial.

It costs money to build a business, and the business only grows on the reputation and profits that it generates.  In the end, the customer pays for everything. 

 

[Jesse]

I would say that your limiting factor is your ability to complete work for your customers in a reasonable timeframe.  If taking on too many custom requests resulted in your inability to complete projects, you would cease to function as a business.  Another factor I'd say would be your ability to profit from a variation.  If the custom request required you to buy a bunch of stuff to make it happen, then that should be factored into the cost.  If you're up front about that, it should naturally limit itself because a customer would basically be paying to buy you stuff to complete the project.

In my mind, a reasonable custom shop might offer slight variations on a standard model.  Using Warmoth as an example, here are two custom requests that I wanted that they wouldn't do that I personally feel were well within reason, especially considering that they do offer custom hand routing for different bridges.

1. Fret end back bevel angle.  The standard is 30 degrees, but they will also do zero degrees.  I wanted 15, because of the way I finish fret ends.  They wouldn't do it.  Why?  You're cutting the frets already, just set the machine at a different angle.

2. Offset dots.  All I'm asking for is dots in a different spot.  They already sort of do this on the Nightswan inlay.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

Tooling, and programing...
Expensive, and time consuming, respectively.

I have been a "parts puncher", and worked with some freakishly talented CNC programers.
to set a machine to run "off program" can run in additional hours of set up and writing,
and to do it for a one off... Far to impractical for consideration.

So short answer, it's your shop, your rules and if someone doesn't like that let them shop elsewhere, free market consumerism is a beautiful thing.

 

[Jesse]

That is totally understandable and probably explains most of my situation.  If you're set up to run 100% on CNC, deviations could be a major issue.  For a small guy, that's probably not an issue.

That wasn't meant to be a rant against Warmoth, more an example of a "simple" deviation that a small/one man custom shop could handle without any impact to tooling or build time.  An example of an unreasonable request would be asking for naked lady inlays.

 

[Orpheo]

Even for a one-man-shop, doing a 15 degree bevel in stead of 30 isn't an easy switch. For me, I'd have to make a new jig for that bevel and that takes time. Minor things may look simple and easy but often, they're not.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

At "W", dots are on a gang drill, all else is CNC'd.

Also, even just running prototypes for new models requires several test runs followed by programming revisions.

I remember when the Gecko was re-designed in order to accommodate supply from a new bridge manufacturer, about 10 of those were ran.

Consider what it took to run those 10.  It meant the bread and butter of the Strat & Tele bodies were NOT running at that time in order to accommodate these test runs, not to mention the labor of having a programmer revise the program after each one.  Right there alone, you have labor costs, and "opportunity cost" which is a term that many consumers don't hear thrown around a lot when it comes to talking about business, but many business owners know about it all too well. 

Basically, if running a custom option for a customer results in a profit that is less likely to be equal or more than the profits made from normal production, it is costing the company the profits that would otherwise be there from the production.  The custom option at this point is costing the company profits just to even run.  There is no profit in it.  With that in mind, simple math would deduce that it is appropriate from a business standpoint to reject that particular custom request.

 

[pabloman]

It's all about people's interpretation of the term "Custom Shop". People seem to have taken this as meaning the sky's the limit. My advice would be to not call yourself a custom shop. Present yourself in a clear manner," I am a guitar builder with several base models that can be customized." This is just smart business. You will be able to deliver a much better product this way. This is how most successful builders do it. You do not want every build to be an experiment. Especially as an upstart. The other benefit is this will allow you to build an identity for yourself. I guess you have to decide why you're building and what are you hoping to accomplish. Are you trying to give any player out there whatever they want or do you have an idea of what a guitar could/should be and want to help someone who gets your vision and is like minded build the right guitar for them? Do you even have a vision? Good luck with all of this. Live the dream! ccasion14: 

 

[musicispeace]

Timely topic. Maybe be flexible to at least some degree regarding components that don't involve significant disruption to what you are wanting to produce. That said, being clear about where the wiggle room is and is not for "options" up front is important. From those I have talked with in my journey into the world of parts caster (as one example) there will always be people who want something that is beyond either the practical capability of a small to medium size (let alone a large) business or that goes beyond any interest in meeting someone halfway that the builder has. "Custom Shop" needs to be defined by the given shop and that is both OK and helpful to potential customers. If you have a vision that equates to crating a brand that is identified with you stick with your passion. Being clear with the world at large is good. Just stay away from imposing your opinion on a customer's guitar that they are not in agreement with like one tech I have previously had and took issue with. But that is a different context. Point is, if you are going to hang a shingle stand with what you envision but be clear . Custom Shop does not have to mean anything goes. It can denote quality and personal attention to the instruments. Level of flexibility is up to you. Just be up front.

 

[line6man]

As I understand, the issue here is not that the customers' demands are cost prohibitive, or excessively laborious, as is common with the sort of requests that Warmoth deals with regularly. Rather, the issue is that customers are interested in options that are inconsistent with the OP's preferences for guitars that he will build. In other words, the OP does not wish to manufacture guitars with specs that deviate from his own liking. If this is the case, the OP is certainly within his right to pick and choose the projects that he will take on, but the downside is that it will cost him a lot of business. For example, if a customer wants red paint, and you don't want to make a red guitar, then you lose out on the chance to make any money, because the customer will just get his red guitar somewhere else. If your vision and the integrity of your line of guitars is worth making this choice, then go for it.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Even just making your options very basic, and noting, "for other options, inquire directly"
Don't make any public promises that you can't fulfill.

 

[mayfly]

Back a million years ago when I was making guitar amps, I published small a list of options.  Whenever I went outside of that list for a special request (reverb on an AC 30 for example - nutty!!)  I always regretted it.  Not only did doing those custom features take much longer, but in the end I catered to a picky customer who was also picky about other stuff too.  Ended up being a nightmare of support and care/maintenance.  Sometimes I did refunds in these situations - which I never regretted.  I fired a problem customer and ended up selling the amps to people who where a lot less hassle to deal with and actually appreciated the product.  That's the right situation for a builder.

So - to the OP:  I think setting limits is something you definitely should do.  Don't like BC Rich shapes?  don't do them.  Don't like bolt ons?  don't do them.  Don't like carbon fibre?  Don't do it    Make it clear to customers up front and you'll eliminate the annoying ones, sell to appreciative ones, and make things less of a problem for yourself.  I know of one custom bolt on builder who will only use Lollar pickups for example.  To us that seems pretty restrictive, but that's how he is and it's his right to make those limits.  I think you have the right to set your limits.

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Great point.

To the last comment about only using Lollar pickups, it helps that builder maintain compliance with any minimum order requirements, as well as his dealer volume cost as well.  That's one reason why some options are limited.  It's also another reason why "W" will route for some pre-specified options such as bridges & such, so long as the customer supplies it, since "W" has minimum order requirements with various manufacturers.

 

[stratamania]

I think a lot of good things set above.

I think you need a vision. But is there a market for that vision ? If so great, if not adjust slightly to meet the market.

Either way I think you need a menu system from which most choices can be made with associated costs. If there is a slight variation you may be able to accommodate with an extra charge or decide that it's too far away or time consuming to do.

Then it's down to what you can sell for till being established enough to be able to command higher prices. I know I would prefer to make the same profit from 10 days work versus 20 for example.

Interestingly a manufacturer has just announced reducing a vast range of colour choices across their range as there were not enough orders to warrant it apparently. So they are streamlining in order to introduce new ranges etc.

Anyway hope some of the above is useful or food for thought.

 

[mayfly]

Hey Orpheo!

I was just cruising through your Facebook page.  It seems that you've already got a super long list of options and different instruments!!  Loads of different stuff!

I think you need to limit that back to, say,

LP shaped guitars with exotic woods.  User picks woods
SD pickups only
Choice of wiring
Choice of frets
Choice of finish
Choice of neck profile

That's it.  well, that flying V on there looks pretty cool as well.  But I'd limit it back to a really small set.

 

[musicispeace]

Hey Orpheo!

I was just cruising through your Facebook page.  It seems that you've already got a super long list of options and different instruments!!  Loads of different stuff!

I think you need to limit that back to, say,

LP shaped guitars with exotic woods.  User picks woods
SD pickups only
Choice of wiring
Choice of frets
Choice of finish
Choice of neck profile

That's it.  well, that flying V on there looks pretty cool as well.  But I'd limit it back to a really small set.

Those are some good points. What guitar types and options excite you the most that you want to present to clients in the form of a guitar for them? You can always scale up more as you go. I agree with the idea of menu selections up front. But I definitely see it as a positive that you want to get involved in putting guitars out there for all of us to consider and several people to buy. One thing that excites me about self starters in guitar building is the need for there to be quality options outside of what the dinosaur manufacturers are doing at present.

 

[Cagey]

Am I wrong in saying 'I won't do this' or 'I refuse to do that'? Simply because it doesn't fit in the range, the vision I have for my company. 

I don't think so. Your name is going on the thing. You don't want somebody out in the world to pick up one of your instruments and say "what in the hell was he thinking about here? This guy clearly knows nothing about building guitars."

For example, you'd have to be nuts to offer or agree to install some of Fender's older bridge/vibrato designs. They're just not any good. If you put something out there with your name on it that uses one of those pieces of hardware, it's going to have tunability/reliability/repeatability problems, and who's gonna get blamed for it? You are.

Lotsa stuff like that. Plastic nuts. Kluson tuners. Certain pickups. String trees. Nickel/silver frets. Bizarro control schemes.

 

[aarontunes]

When you are building a business you want to enjoy what you do, and create a product you can be proud of, that appeals to as many people as you can...but the bottom line is to keep the doors open one more day and continue to feed your family.

Many people have absolutely no clue the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes in a manufacturing facility. At Warmoth we get calls all the time from people who think their very simple request should be easy for us to do, and they are agasp when we tell them "no". They have no clue as to the costs (time and money) associated with making even small changes to production. They have no clue what it takes for an American company, with an American work-force, to compete in a world marketplace. "Simple" stuff is never simple. Pulling a guy off a production line to do something very simple for one person means an entire production line is slowed down. There is a high cost to that. Do you think that customer would be willing to cover Warmoth's actual cost for their "simple" request? (Not to mention a little profit so we can keep the doors open one more day and feed our families.)

If there is an option that Warmoth doesn't offer, if there is a custom job that Warmoth says "no" to, if there are models, or woods, or paints that you think should be available but aren't...there are very legitimate reasons why. There are lots of back-seat drivers who want to argue, or tell us how easy this should be, but after a point it become easier to simply say "no" than it does continually justify our decision to every new person that asks.

The bottom line is, trying to be custom shop that will do anything and everything a customer requests can put you out of business. In today's world you just can't charge enough for it. Instead, I think you need to have a vision for your business, draw a circle around the things you do really well -  the things that separate you from your competition - and own that circle.

My $.02.

 

[sixstringsamurai]

^^^ :icon_thumright:^^^
what  he said 125%

I mean seriously...
Where else are you gonna get a 24 3/4 scale strat neck cut to 50's Gibson spec with a laid back headstock?
:guitarplayer2:

 

[TonyFlyingSquirrel]

Spot on Aaron!!!