Vintage vs. Modern, a study with (not so) surprising results...?

[Cagey]

I think I said something about not liking being told how to run my life, and it went off on a tangent from there <grin>

 

[UWModerator]

Yeah, guys, healthcare borders the political, let's get it back to old guitars, not old folks  :icon_thumright:

 

[Jusatele]

thanks mr moderator guy
I was trying my hardest to stay out of that one

 

[Cagey]

Yeah, guys, healthcare borders the political, let's get it back to old guitars, not old folks  :icon_thumright:

Sooo... what? Now we can not only not talk about politics, we can't even talk about anything that borders it? Where does that end? It could be effectively argued that everything "borders" the political.

This is the "Off-Topic" area, so it should be fair game, outside of the normal caveats. Although, I do appreciate threads staying "on-topic" regardless of what the topic is. I don't want to be reading about the merits of chokes vs. current-limiting resistors in amplifier power supplies and find myself in the middle of a discussion on the best way to make scrambled eggs.

But, you moderators have to realize that this isn't just a linked list of comments, it's a community. That's what makes it a nice place to congregate. People learn to know each other, their likes and dislikes, become friends, do business with each other and would like to discuss things that affect their lives besides lacquer vs. poly or Strat vs. Tele. Sometimes, their mother just died, or they just had a child, or their car rocks or sucks, or their song just got published and the record company is screwing them. Guitars and basses aren't the end of all things.

You get too strident in your application or interpretation of the rules, and you'll find your participation levels dropping, and that's not good for anybody.

 

[jackthehack]

Back to the original post, it's crazy the tangents y'all can get off on...  Random thoughts:

1.) If you're looking at 400 year old violins made by acknowledged masters of the craft, there is great intrinsic collectible value just due to rarity and desirability.
2.) Given wood and varnish as a medium, some differentiation between surviving examples would be expected, if for no other reason the ambient conditions/care they were subjected to over four centuries. Note that EVERYBODY hated the oldest Stradivari the most.
3.) Complete apples/oranges comparisons between this and "vintage" electric guitars, you cannot reasonably compare acoustic instruments to electrics.
4.) I am in no way very knowledgable about violins, but having owned/played '50's/'60's Strats, I can assure you that if you use woods per the originals to do a build and vintage type pickups/electronics/wiring you can get tone very close to the original. Can't think why that corollary couldn't apply to violins/their construction as well...

All that said, vintage gear has MOJO new stuff can't match.

 

[Wyliee]

Cagey,  I would like to think we've historically been fairly liberal in policy enforcement.  There's a lot of leeway given.  At times, too much leeway.

What we've learned is politics, even in off topic, generates more venom and vigor than any other topic.  It can be as toxic to board participation as heavy handed moderation. 

My preference is to caution posters and try re-directing threads back on topic.  Hopefully we've been more successful than not in keeping a positive atmosphere on the boards.


With that said, the vintage vs modern debate baffles me.  I see guys dropping big buck on vintage instruments only to turn around and run it through an amp modeler and a fancy 3-way cabinet....and wonder why it sounds different....

 

[Cagey]

I agree on both counts. I just took umbrage at the "bordering" qualification because it's a slippery slope. Everything borders something else, so where's the line? I suspect many people are reluctant to post out of fear of being castigated either by ambiguous rules or backlash from established posters who hold strong opinions, so we end up being less helpful than we could be. That's no good for anybody, either. The forum exists to clarify procedures, help the curious and dispel anxiety, right? Isn't that its basic mission? You wanna sell parts? You don't want the place to seem over-burdened by oversight. Makes it uncomfortable. As you've pointed out before, most people here like things the way they are according to the rules that exist, and will self-moderate to maintain that atmosphere.

 

[Justinginn]

All that said, vintage gear has MOJO new stuff can't match.

This. Question solved. At the end of the day, who cares how it sounds? I play through modelers that sound better than my tube amp. But when it comes down to it, the tube amp will always have something the modelers don't, no matter how hard I tweak. But I'm gonna use my modelers (through my amps effects loop  :icon_thumright: ) anyway because I need the versatility.

If I could afford something cool/rare from the 60's I'd go for it and mod it to heck and make it mine. And it would become my tool and the way I'd play would be shaped by that tool and it'd make good music. Instruments are tools, not sound generators.

 

[Jusatele]

Face it, I love vintage tube sound, not the full soak of modern tube amps, but that knifes edge of riding the edge you get from the vintage stuff. That is why I love some amps others choose to hate, the old bassman models are a good example.
But I also run a Vox VTX 120 watt modeling amp. So what gives?
Vintage is a vibe people pay big for, but vintage also means OLD, which means breakdowns or deterioration.
Say as you please but OLD is cool at home, but in the trenches OLD is a problem. Weather it is a scratchy pot on your axe, or a sagging tube in your rig. You do not need vintage onstage.
Leave vintage at home, live no one will be able to tell, especially after a few beers.

 

[jackthehack]

Even better, vintage guitars with modern PU's...

 

[drewfx]

All that said, vintage gear has MOJO new stuff can't match.

Actually, since mojo is all in your mind it can.  :icon_biggrin:

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I think I said something about not liking being told how to run my life, and it went off on a tangent from there <grin>

So, how'bout that Obamacare?  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[Cagey]

Don't get me started...

 

[Justinginn]

I didn't hear that.

:guitarplayer2: arty07: :guitaristgif: arty07: :guitarplayer2: :headbang1: :guitaristgif: arty07:


Too much rock music to overhear the politics.

 

[italoop]

This is it exactly - some people want stuff to be somehow "magical" and thus unobtainable. They hate nothing more than the idea that something can be easily mass produced, reproduced or, gasp, digitized.

I always think, gee if aging is going to change the sound of my guitar, and I think it's perfect right now, doesn't that mean it's going to be worse 20 years from now?

I have had my ES335 with me since 1985. It was made in 1984 so this year marks its 40th birthday. This guitar has always been with me and played quite a lot. It's a natural blonde, made when Gibson got back to re_building their guitars as close as possible to the late '50s/early '60s old ones. It was called "ES335 DOT" 'cuz of the dots on the fingerboard, abandoned for a loooong time and its pickups are Tim Shaw P.A.F. with stickers on them. The guitar played nicely since the beginning as I was lucky to select her among a dozen I tried that day. But in time its tone has improved A LOT; I'd say "dramatically" improved. Gibson used to work woods naturally seasoned for about 4 to 6 years and then dryed in ovens. I can only guess that adding 40 more years to that has changed how wood vibrates and in a better way. And having been played and close to music sources like amps, stereo hi-fi system, etc... her wood has always been vibrating in a musical way. So good wood getting older and music vibrations is all that could have possibly done the great improvement. This 335 today sounds like heaven so yes.... you can have all the machines and technology you want but IF the quality of your current woods is not TOP, you don't have a champion in your hands. Add to that tha fact you can't buy time, luckily. So all this relic nonsense is total BS. You got to live your guitar for time and time, making it a seasoned instrument that no other way can truly make it. The idea of "perfect" might be very, very relative. You can't really define that and in time your same idea may change.

 

[Scab Pickens]

I have had my ES335 with me since 1985. It was made in 1984 so this year marks its 40th birthday. This guitar has always been with me and played quite a lot. It's a natural blonde, made when Gibson got back to re_building their guitars as close as possible to the late '50s/early '60s old ones. It was called "ES335 DOT" 'cuz of the dots on the fingerboard, abandoned for a loooong time and its pickups are Tim Shaw P.A.F. with stickers on them. The guitar played nicely since the beginning as I was lucky to select her among a dozen I tried that day. But in time its tone has improved A LOT; I'd say "dramatically" improved. Gibson used to work woods naturally seasoned for about 4 to 6 years and then dryed in ovens. I can only guess that adding 40 more years to that has changed how wood vibrates and in a better way. And having been played and close to music sources like amps, stereo hi-fi system, etc... her wood has always been vibrating in a musical way. So good wood getting older and music vibrations is all that could have possibly done the great improvement. This 335 today sounds like heaven so yes.... you can have all the machines and technology you want but IF the quality of your current woods is not TOP, you don't have a champion in your hands. Add to that tha fact you can't buy time, luckily. So all this relic nonsense is total BS. You got to live your guitar for time and time, making it a seasoned instrument that no other way can truly make it. The idea of "perfect" might be very, very relative. You can't really define that and in time your same idea may change.

You do realize that you are replying to a 12 year old post, right?

 

[italoop]

You do realize that you are replying to a 12 year old post, right?

See! My point! Time makes good things!
The fact that YOU read my post justifies my writing. People can read things and think, no matter the time of the writing.... or forums could erase old posts instead of keeping knowledge available to everybody.

 

[Bruce Campbell]

See! My point! Time makes good things!
The fact that YOU read my post justifies my writing. People can read things and think, no matter the time of the writing.... or forums could erase old posts instead of keeping knowledge available to everybody.

For latecomers like me, the prior forum posts are invaluable, and a sort of continually expanding text. I guess it can muddy the waters that are "supposed" to be kept clear for more timely or pertinent topics, but the older material is still extremely valuable. I'm glad I'm not limited to exploring knowledge that's brand new, or else I wouldn't have gotten anywhere!

 

[italoop]

For latecomers like me, the prior forum posts are invaluable, and a sort of continually expanding text. I guess it can muddy the waters that are "supposed" to be kept clear for more timely or pertinent topics, but the older material is still extremely valuable. I'm glad I'm not limited to exploring knowledge that's brand new, or else I wouldn't have gotten anywhere!

Knowledge is precious! And timeless as such.

 

[stratamania]

There is nothing wrong with reading old posts.

But commenting on old posts and discussions that are no longer current posts and often the participants are no longer active members is a bit like talking to a wall and not adding much if anything. It is better to participate in current posts. You will get more interest.