Vibrato Bridge Mounting Stud Retrofit - Stoptail (7/16") to Floyd (3/8").. or so

[Cagey]

I have a Warmoth Strat body that was supposedly routed for a top-mount Floyd Rose vibrato bridge. I also have a Schaller bridge designed to use the Floyd mounting arrangement while relieving me of having to suffer a Floyd, but there seems to be some anomalies.

First, just fiddling with the thing, since I can't mount anything at the moment, it seems there isn't going to be any room for sharping the strings. The "sustain block" is going to hit the body almost immediately if you pull up on the wang bar. So much for the legendary range of the things. But, that's not my biggest concern. I have a router; I'll teach the damn thing a lesson about defying my wishes.

My main concern at the moment is that the stud mounting holes appear to have been drilled out for much larger bushings than what are typically used with those bridges. It's supposed to be an interference fit, but this is like sliding a hot dog into a hallway. The bushings just literally drop in the holes without ever even touching the sides.

The holes measure roughly .435" in diameter, which is suspiciously close to 7/16". The bushings measure roughly .395" in diameter, which is about .040" off, give or take a mile. So... what's a mother to do? I can't find replacement bushings/studs that will use a gaping hole like that and present the appropriate fulcrum point to the bridge's base plate.

I can't believe I'm the first person to encounter this, so what's the fix? Am I to install dowels and re-drill the holes, or is there a product I have yet to find that will just fit?

 

[line6man]

I have a Warmoth Strat body that was supposedly routed for a top-mount Floyd Rose vibrato bridge. I also have a Schaller bridge designed to use the Floyd mounting arrangement while relieving me of having to suffer a Floyd

How exactly is a non-recessed Floyd any different from any other tremolo bridge?

 

[jlegnor]

To me it sounds like you'll have to plug and redrill for the posts, which is kinda weird that they're so large.  But as others have said, a non-recessed route is only suppose to allow you to lower pitch.  It sits flush with the body.  Which means you have to shim the crap out of the saddles on some setups just to get the strings off the frets.  (at least I had to).  I so wish they offered the 720 mod with the flush mounted Floyds. 

 

[Cagey]

A top mount Floyd is a dive-only setup.

Really? That would be difficult to believe if I didn't have one sitting here. What good is a vibrato that only goes in one direction? If you're going to suffer all the hardship of a vibrato bridge, why not use one that works?

 

[Cagey]

How exactly is a non-recessed Floyd any different from any other tremolo bridge?

Well, for starters, it seems you can only flat strings with one.

No, Mrs. Van Halen, little Eddie can't play sharp notes. They're dangerous. He could put an eye out.​

 

[Cagey]

To me it sounds like you'll have to plug and redrill for the posts, which is kinda weird that they're so large.  But as others have said, a non-recessed route is only suppose to allow you to lower pitch.  It sits flush with the body.  Which means you have to shim the crap out of the saddles on some setups just to get the strings off the frets.  (at least I had to).  I so wish they offered the 720 mod with the flush mounted Floyds.  

I can certainly do that, but I'm surprised it's necessary. I suspect somebody drilled these holes out for some reason because Warmoth doesn't offer a bridge route with this dimension. Although, I suppose you could special order it. Looking around the 'board, it seems I'm at least the 3rd owner of this thing. I'm beginning to see why.

Plugging the holes and redrilling isn't the end of the world, but the body's already finished so it's going to be obvious. That's the part that bugs me. If the thing was already a wreck, I wouldn't care. but, it's a beautiful body/finish. I hate to deface it.

 

[line6man]

How exactly is a non-recessed Floyd any different from any other tremolo bridge?

Well, for starters, it seems you can only flat strings with one.

You can tilt the bridge up a bit so you can pull the bar up, but first off, only being able to dive is something common to nearly all non-recessed tremolos, and second, if you do it that way, how is the Floyd any different from any other floating bridge?

 

[DangerousR6]

First, just fiddling with the thing, since I can't mount anything at the moment, it seems there isn't going to be any room for sharping the strings. The "sustain block" is going to hit the body almost immediately if you pull up on the wang bar. So much for the legendary range of the things. But, that's not my biggest concern. I have a router; I'll teach the damn thing a lesson about defying my wishes.

A top mount Floyd is a dive-only setup.

Unfortunately this is a myth, I have plenty of top mount Floyds that will dive and pull up. It depends on how you set it up.

 

[DangerousR6]

I have a Warmoth Strat body that was supposedly routed for a top-mount Floyd Rose vibrato bridge. I also have a Schaller bridge designed to use the Floyd mounting arrangement while relieving me of having to suffer a Floyd, but there seems to be some anomalies.

First, just fiddling with the thing, since I can't mount anything at the moment, it seems there isn't going to be any room for sharping the strings. The "sustain block" is going to hit the body almost immediately if you pull up on the wang bar. So much for the legendary range of the things. But, that's not my biggest concern. I have a router; I'll teach the damn thing a lesson about defying my wishes.

My main concern at the moment is that the stud mounting holes appear to have been drilled out for much larger bushings than what are typically used with those bridges. It's supposed to be an interference fit, but this is like sliding a hot dog into a hallway. The bushings just literally drop in the holes without ever even touching the sides.

The holes measure roughly .435" in diameter, which is suspiciously close to 7/16". The bushings measure roughly .395" in diameter, which is about .040" off, give or take a mile. So... what's a mother to do? I can't find replacement bushings/studs that will use a gaping hole like that and present the appropriate fulcrum point to the bridge's base plate.

I can't believe I'm the first person to encounter this, so what's the fix? Am I to install dowels and re-drill the holes, or is there a product I have yet to find that will just fit?

Really sounds to me like someone tried to redrill the holes, turning it into a stop tail...

 

[stubhead]

There are two problems. About the pullupability, I don't know, but about the other - is it even possible to trace down the person who drilled those holes that way, and ascertain that it is just a total doofism and that he's not sitting there holding a set of .435" doodads? I'm sure you've run through every bushing option at Allparts, have you hit up Ibanez Rules?
http://www.ibanezrules.com/parts.htm

If you can find a brass or bronze bearing that slip fits the holes and POUNDING-fits the bushings you have, by the the time you hammer them in there it'll be a tight fit in the wood. Somewhere in the world there absolutely exists the tubing or bearing that'll fit (or can be MADE to fit  :evil4, it's just a question of whether it's easier or harder than to find than to do all the necessary plug-cutting, filling and drilling. You do know not to use a dowel, right? The wood grain of a dowel runs the long way, which makes for a weak vertical re-drill. You have to find a hardwood and cut plugs that go across the grain, for the best results.

Alternately, you might even consider building up the diameter of the largest available bushings - the fiberglass tape - epoxy combination used to make and fix boats and surfboards would do.

If I had to do this right now with what I had on hand, I would use some of the process I had to do to install bushings for a non-locking 2-point whammy on my Warmoth seven-string - Warmoth would only route and drill for a Floyd. I got two 3 1/2" bolts that fit the bushing screws. Then I measured the distance apart, and drilled two holes that far apart in a piece of 1" X 2" scrap wood - it was something like 2 11/16". Slip the bolts through that, and you have a jig that holds the bushings upright and the right distance apart. I used this to fit the bushings to the mounting holes by hand - no drill press & too lazy to find one. But if I had your issue*, I would drill the holes through the scrap wood to hold the bolts. Then, I'd figure out just how much medical gauze was needed to wrap around the bushing to hold them snug. Then I'd mix up some casting resin and CAST THE BUGGERS RIGHT INTO THEIR SNUGGY LITTLE HOLES - forever and ever. You'd wanna stuff them with a wad of plastic wrap at the bottom, maybe even that with a tiny drop of olive oil or something/anything wet, to keep the resin from seeping into the threaded post holes. Though, the bolts have boltheads, it'd be hard to NOT be able to get them out even if a little resin got too friendly.

Look, I have the bolts I could send you, and an extra pair of bushings and posts that fit those bolts. But these bushings are only 9mm/.343" (or so) anyway, so it doesn't fix the problem, just makes a start.

P.S. (I just converted "11 millimeters" to inches and got 0.43307". Hmmm.)


*(I personally have no issues, only PROBLEMS :evil4

http://www.bostongear.com/litportal/pdfs/Bearing%20pp%20017_25.pdf
http://www.richardscompany.com/Boston_bronzxs_Bobrnz.htm

 

[DangerousR6]

]Unfortunately this is a myth, I have plenty of top mount Floyds that will dive and pull up. It depends on how you set it up.

How do you set that up?

Most people ASSUME you have to set up the non-recess flat on the body, but you don't. It won't work for every guitar, because it depends a great deal on the neck pocket rout.  But if your one of those who doesn't have to have the string action right down on the frets, then it's a no brainer. Just raise everything thing up a bit, I've done mine and been able to keep a decent string action. I'm certainly not saying that you can set it up to have as much pull as a recessed rout, but you can have a decent amount.. :icon_biggrin:

 

[Cagey]

Really sounds to me like someone tried to redrill the holes, turning it into a stop tail...

That's what I think happened, too. It's ok; I can fix it. I'd just rather not if I can buy some bushings that'll fit the holes. But, it doesn't look like I can. So, it's off to the wood joint praying they make 7/16" dowel out of something nice and hard.

 

[stubhead]

I wonder what's inside the locking stop tailpiece studs?

 

[bagman67]

Really sounds to me like someone tried to redrill the holes, turning it into a stop tail...

That's what I think happened, too. It's ok; I can fix it. I'd just rather not if I can buy some bushings that'll fit the holes. But, it doesn't look like I can. So, it's off to the wood joint praying they make 7/16" dowel out of something nice and hard.

You could also get some turning stock of an appropriate lumber and have someone make you the dowel you need.  Somebody around here turns pens - I forget who.  Pen shaft turning stock in various exotic species is pretty cheap at Woodcraft.

 

[Cagey]

I'm thinking about the fiberglass trick Stubhead mentioned, although I'm not sure I could pull that off without making an ugly mess. The sleeve bearing trick sounds best, but I don't have any metal machining/threading capability at all, and am unwilling to buy into it or the talents of those who've already made the investment. It's just a bridge, after all.

Dowel doesn't come in the size I need (7/16"), but it does come close, at 1/2". I don't have a lathe, but I do have drills and a press, so I could open the holes up little more to suit, which would also allow for thicker sidewalls on the dowel once it's re-drilled. I think that might be the most practical solution.

 

[Cagey]

I wonder what's inside the locking stop tailpiece studs?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you talking about the studs themselves? They have a specially cut head to make a self-centering fulcrum point for the bridge base's knife edges. The threads are pretty fine. Surprisingly so, actually. My eyes aren't that good anymore, but it looks like roughly 64tpi and roughly 17/64" or 9/32" (6.74mm or so) in diameter. I've never seen studs this size or with threads like this.

 

[stubhead]

No, I mean that if it appears to be drilled for studs - 7/16", 11mm, is it possible that inside the locking ones of that size is a hole of 9mm that bushings would fit? The extra bushings I have appear to be 11/32", .343", I eyeball them at 8.8mm but the converter says 8.7122mm. So they need a  - something - that's slightly smaller than that that they can be pounded into or even a bit larger, wrap with paper/gauze/etc + epoxy - and the outside of that, whatever it is, needs to be 11mm/7/16". If you look at the closeup picture of these locking studs - what's the inside size of that?

http://www.guitarcenter.com/TonePros-Locking-Studs-US-Thread-306144-i1128064.gc#

But they're too expensive anyway. There are turnbuckles, T-nuts, plumbing parts, brass gas-fitting parts, all sorts of cylindrical metal ... things with an outside O.D. and an inside O.D., threaded or not. If you can get the O.D. and I.D. of what you need you could just enter those into Google, and the Metalworking section of Ebay and see:
http://business.shop.ebay.com/Manufacturing-Metalworking-/11804/i.html?_trksid=p3910.c0.m485

There IS an auto part or plumbing doodad or SOMETHING out there that's just what you need, you got to figure out how to ask the right question. I'll root through my parts bin (AKA "junk") in the morn and see if something leaps out. Always save junk.....

 

[stubhead]

YOU'RE SAVED! Whew.

I actually found the piece of wood I used to make the alignment jig for when I sunk the posts on my seven-string. I had turned it into another tool – as you can see the front is beveled away and there's a slot lined with inner-tube rubber – hello, fret polisher, the fingertips say “Thnax!” Illiterate li'l buggers,  - but I've grown quite attached to them... snif. :toothy11: If it was me, now, I'd probably want an alignment jig like this for your job anyway – and the longer the bolts, the easier it is to picture a good vertical alignment. I have those spare posts threaded on there, with a few other things pictured. Unfortunately, well, I only got about four ways to do this - so far. I'm soo-oo sorry... :sad1:

Bad Idea #4 is a turnbuckle with a thread size somewhat bigger than the post's thread, and a different thread pitch. There may be a thread-matched turnbuckle available? The body of that one is a whole lot larger than 7/16” - as you said, you can make the body holes bigger, and if you put a hex “bushing” in there you'd always be able to fill any side gaps with epoxy. But it's aluminum anyway, too much work, etc.

Bad Idea #3 is that hex thing that connects two bolts – I don't know what it's called, probably a bolt connector or something tricky. The threads in there are also larger, but one for your 7/32" (?) 9mm (?) posts would still have six peaks a good deal larger than 7/16”. Bad Idea #2, would just be to find what kind of hex nut fits exactly on your post threads, and buy enough of them to fill the depth of the existing holes. Line up the sides and Loctite before hammering them in. I would most certainly buy anyway – THREE of the longer bolts, and at least one bolt that fits your bushings, because those are the ones that will be needed for pounding and/or gluing – you know why. And at least a couple of nuts or one locknut.

What these three Bad Ideas have in common is that you'd be eliminating the bushings that came with the posts altogether, and replacing them with something that matches the post threads but is just... bigger. Structurally, Bad Idea #3 is probably the soundest, but it'd be impossible to avoid having to saw to size the hardened steel... umm, Big-Nut-Bolt-Connector. The easiest of these three is the one where you just fill your surrogate post up with nuts and hammer away. Size, of course, matters. The nut's hex points, spikes (what ARE the six parts that spoink up called, the part that's NOT called  the “flats”?) can't be too much larger than the hole in the wood. That baby would absolutely have to be cast, epoxied, smothered with superglue or something - if you ever started getting a rattle between two of the nuts, ouch. Dadgummit, shucks etc.

Which leads to the winner, Great Idea #1! Yay. Socket wrench sockets. In the picture is a “Great Neck 4- IN-ONE” screwdriver. It has a chromed steel tube with 3/8” hex drive sockets on either end, one end has a reversible bit with large and small phillips heads, the other end is the 3/8” drive, small and large blades bit. The exterior diameter of the tube is... 7/16ths of an inch. With the sockets removed,  I can drop the bottom end of the posts right in there, but the ridges just don't go in. They might be pounded in, or they might need a bit of reduction. Because you bought your EXTRA extra long bolt and a lock nut, you can saw the head off the bolt, put on the nut, then thread on the bushing. Stick the sawed end in your drill, get your coarse file and maybe a half-round or rattail file and spin 'er down. Checking it against the inside of the socket a lot, just get it close but a bit over – poundably over. The half-round file because you don't want to torpedo-shape them.

Any type of socket is actually OK, metric, imperial, six-sides or twelve – though I have an inkling that a twelve sided one might press-fit the posts really well I'd still epoxy them before they went in. All you really have to do is get the very closest one to the holes in the body – a little OVER is better. I hope you have a hardware store where wandering around with a half-guitar, poking stuff in, is OK. If it turns out the best fit is with a 1/4” drive one, the bushings won't seat all the way, just down to where the wrench head inserts. It'd probably look better to shorten the bushings off the bottom side, and you've still got a nice long bolt and a locknut to hold them, just saw away. Dremel cutoff disk? MEASURE...  Figure out the direction to cut that doesn't un-screw it of course. I'm guessing that the sockets will be about 3/4” long. If they aren't long enough to hit the bottom of the holes – it'd almost work best upside down anyway, with your posts touching bottom and the socket ON TOP, with the chromed end of the socket flush with the body. And the socket interior supporting the top end of the bushings. Zounds. These bushings I have here only thread in from one end, and if that's the case, THINK REALLY HARD before you go upside down. Once you commit, you have to make it work that way. The sockets would be maybe 4 bucks a piece, all the bolts and nuts together about that total. I think it took longer to write this than it would to do it! :toothy12:

 

[DangerousR6]

Most people ASSUME you have to set up the non-recess flat on the body, but you don't. It won't work for every guitar, because it depends a great deal on the neck pocket rout.  But if your one of those who doesn't have to have the string action right down on the frets, then it's a no brainer. Just raise everything thing up a bit, I've done mine and been able to keep a decent string action. I'm certainly not saying that you can set it up to have as much pull as a recessed rout, but you can have a decent amount.. :icon_biggrin:

Yeah - with bad action and increased wear on the knives as a side effect I ASSUME the myth still has it's place.  :icon_biggrin:
[/quote] :laughing11:

 

[Cagey]

YOU'RE SAVED! Whew.

Hehe! Well, I certainly appreciate all you've done thinking about and noodling around with this little problem. You've gone well above and beyond the call of duty. Nothing likes me, though. I think what I'm going to do is set it aside for a bit while I work on other things where I can make a positive difference. I'm thinking I wanna talk to some machine shops. This is the Motor City, so lord knows we've got a million of them. Do it right, rather than do it over. It's a nice little bridge, so I want it to have a good home.