Tuning instability/problems

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
I have a les paul with a straight angled headstock, and this thing just will not stay in tune! I have a fixed bridge on it, and a floyd lock nut with a 'behind the nut' rollernut.  I just gotoh tuners, and this thing just will not stay tuned. a bend, and she's off.

The rollernut is to press the strings downward, onto the toplock nut.

My idea is to get rid of both and use a normal (brass or stainless steel) nut, but with deeper slots. this will give me a clearer tone, and i think that the deeper slots will make sure that the string won't fall out of the slots.

2 issues:
1: because the string doesn't put any downward pressure on the nut, I mght loose some sustain; what do you guys think of this?
2: if I unlock my kahler, I won't have as much travel as before, and tuning will be off even more.


I don't want to lock the toplock down, because I change tuning too often, and when I bend, even with the toplock closed, the guitar just isn't stable, after a huge bend, the strings go flat again and after stretching a million times, the strings just snap off (regardless of brand). so, thats why I want to use a regular nut, but also, a toplock in case I want to divebomb once in a while.


so, what do you guys suggest? aka: what do I do wrong?
 

blue313

Senior member
Messages
2,824
Wow, even with the Floyd style locker it isn't stable?   Hmm....

Is it all the strings or just the G and B?  Also a stupid question, but I have to ask.  You've tried new strings?
 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
Orpheo said:
I have a les paul with a straight angled headstock, and this thing just will not stay in tune! I have a fixed bridge on it, and a floyd lock nut with a 'behind the nut' rollernut.  I just gotoh tuners, and this thing just will not stay tuned. a bend, and she's off.

The rollernut is to press the strings downward, onto the toplock nut.

My idea is to get rid of both and use a normal (brass or stainless steel) nut, but with deeper slots. this will give me a clearer tone, and i think that the deeper slots will make sure that the string won't fall out of the slots.

2 issues:
1: because the string doesn't put any downward pressure on the nut, I mght loose some sustain; what do you guys think of this?
2: if I unlock my kahler, I won't have as much travel as before, and tuning will be off even more.


I don't want to lock the toplock down, because I change tuning too often, and when I bend, even with the toplock closed, the guitar just isn't stable, after a huge bend, the strings go flat again and [size=10pt]after stretching a million times[/size], the strings just snap off (regardless of brand). so, thats why I want to use a regular nut, but also, a toplock in case I want to divebomb once in a while.


so, what do you guys suggest? aka: what do I do wrong?

so yeah, I did stretch the strings :)

and its for all the strings. and its not just any crappy 'ol locker, its a schaller...i've tried new strings, I've tried letting them go old, I've tried boiling them in water... nothing helps. its really mostly the nut.

I have to find a way to get downward pressure on the nut, and at the same time eliminate all thats in the path of the string between the nut and tuner...
 

blue313

Senior member
Messages
2,824
That's too weird.  With the pressure plates torqued down it shouldn't matter whats behind it.  A retainer bar only helps for the initial sharping of the string when locking, as well as helping the strings seat in the nut.

I'd say to first make sure the neck screws are tight, truss rod doesn't rattle, and bridge/tailpiece don't lean or are springy.  If those are ok, swap the nut for another one.
 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
Blue313 said:
That's too weird.  With the pressure plates torqued down it shouldn't matter whats behind it.   A retainer bar only helps for the initial sharping of the string when locking, as well as helping the strings seat in the nut.

I'd say to first make sure the neck screws are tight, truss rod doesn't rattle, and bridge/tailpiece don't lean or are springy.  If those are ok, swap the nut for another one.

well, as I said, when the bolts are firmly down, she goes out of tune after a heavy bend, and I don't know why. when the lock is open, she goes flat, and when I do a behind-the-nut bend, she goes sharp like crazy.

the retainerbar has ben replaced by the roller 'nut' to smooth out the strings motion. and indeed, it makes the string seat better in the locknut, but it might be some of the equation of the problem.

the neckscrews are VERY tight, the trussrod doesn't rattle, and the bridge/tailpiece is a locked down, screwed down kahler, so its like a fixed bridge, so there's no problem there.

It's too late now, I'll check some stuff tomorrow. maybe some oil on the mechanisms again? this is frustrating, cause its the best sounding and playing guitar I have.
 

smavridis

Senior member
Messages
710
Orpheo said:
Orpheo said:
I have a les paul with a straight angled headstock, and this thing just will not stay in tune! I have a fixed bridge on it, and a floyd lock nut with a 'behind the nut' rollernut.  I just gotoh tuners, and this thing just will not stay tuned. a bend, and she's off.

The rollernut is to press the strings downward, onto the toplock nut.

My idea is to get rid of both and use a normal (brass or stainless steel) nut, but with deeper slots. this will give me a clearer tone, and i think that the deeper slots will make sure that the string won't fall out of the slots.

2 issues:
1: because the string doesn't put any downward pressure on the nut, I mght loose some sustain; what do you guys think of this?
2: if I unlock my kahler, I won't have as much travel as before, and tuning will be off even more.


I don't want to lock the toplock down, because I change tuning too often, and when I bend, even with the toplock closed, the guitar just isn't stable, after a huge bend, the strings go flat again and [size=10pt]after stretching a million times[/size], the strings just snap off (regardless of brand). so, thats why I want to use a regular nut, but also, a toplock in case I want to divebomb once in a while.


so, what do you guys suggest? aka: what do I do wrong?

so yeah, I did stretch the strings :)

and its for all the strings. and its not just any crappy 'ol locker, its a schaller...i've tried new strings, I've tried letting them go old, I've tried boiling them in water... nothing helps. its really mostly the nut.

I have to find a way to get downward pressure on the nut, and at the same time eliminate all thats in the path of the string between the nut and tuner...
hah my bad  :dontknow:
 

dbw

Senior member
Messages
4,531
You said this is a "straight angled" headstock.  Which is it, straight or angled?  They're opposites   :help: :help:

Pics would also help...
 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
dbw said:
You said this is a "straight angled" headstock.  Which is it, straight or angled?  They're opposites   :help: :help:

Pics would also help...

thanks, its kinda late here ;) its a straight head.

some older pics, but still valid:

0e94e6ee.jpg


339ebc91.jpg


ffb4d1a2.jpg


ab618c87.jpg


a598a77a.jpg


To summarise, my goals are the following:

1: tuning stability, after a divebomb or bending
2: easy switching between tunings; so, when I lock down the bridge and open up the lock nut, I should be able to switch easy between E and G open, whilst my first statement still holds.


the options I've come up with:

1: leave it as it is, and learn to live with the (huge) imperfection of this instrument.
2: chop of the headstock and have it glued back on an angle.warmoth didn't do it, cause they were afraid their glue wouldn't hold up.
3: get a new, regular, brass nut with deeper slots, and no locking mechanism whatsoever.
4: engineer a new toplock, like the older kahlers, which already press down the string at an angle, or buy the old kahlers if I can find them (not the behind the nut ones, but the other ones)
5: get rid of the locknut, and use the roller nut and a kahler behind the nut locker.
6: use the brass nut and a kahler behind the nut locker
7: use the floyd lock and a bar retainer.

any ideas and comments are appreciated.
 

DocNrock

Senior member
Messages
4,295
Let me think about this.  My first thought is that there should be NO tuning instability.  Like I said, let me think about this.
 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
DocNrock said:
Let me think about this.  My first thought is that there should be NO tuning instability.  Like I said, let me think about this.

the (trem) doc's in the house! I'll let you think, and I'll just go to sleep right now :p hell, its too stupid, I'm worrying my head off on my b-day. I must be crazy.
 

DocNrock

Senior member
Messages
4,295
Orpheo said:
DocNrock said:
Let me think about this.  My first thought is that there should be NO tuning instability.  Like I said, let me think about this.

the (trem) doc's in the house! I'll let you think, and I'll just go to sleep right now :p hell, its too stupid, I'm worrying my head off on my b-day. I must be crazy.

Happy birthday, first of all!  :icon_thumright:

Now, let me think about this.
 

smavridis

Senior member
Messages
710
Orpheo said:
DocNrock said:
Let me think about this.  My first thought is that there should be NO tuning instability.  Like I said, let me think about this.

the (trem) doc's in the house! I'll let you think, and I'll just go to sleep right now :p hell, its too stupid, I'm worrying my head off on my b-day. I must be crazy.
[size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt][size=10pt]HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! [/size][/size][/size][/size]
 

bpmorton777

Senior member
Messages
1,651
I recall seeing a youtube video where the guy compared floyds to kahlers. Didnt he say that when you bend the strings on a kahler you'd have to use the wammy bar afterward to bring the strings back to pitch. something to do with the roller saddles.

Brian
 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
bpmorton777 said:
I recall seeing a youtube video where the guy compared floyds to kahlers. Didnt he say that when you bend the strings on a kahler you'd have to use the wammy bar afterward to bring the strings back to pitch. something to do with the roller saddles.

Brian

thats true, butttttt: he didn't have the trem locked down, and I do. and he had the trem going sharp, and with me, its going flat.... and when I use the bar, the guitar goes out of tune even more. aka: topnut problem.

@the others: thanks for the b-day wishes :)
 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
I tried out several things.

1: toplock closed tight: issues remain, but to a (bit) lesser degree.
2: roller nut away; same thing
3: roller nut + regular nut: problem is LESS
4: all tight and closed, tremolo open; HELL. this is really torture. no string will stay in tune for longer than a second

 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
last update: I removed the entire toplock and used the roller NUT as the nut, and now she's better in tune, after tremolo-ing and with the bridge fixed. still nog perfect, the G still stretches/cloggs up like a madman, but this is the best I can get it right now. added bonus: more brightness due to the material of the nut, and lower action.
 

mayfly

Senior member
Messages
8,170
Here's my take on it.

Your locking nut was not locking.  I suspect that there was a piece of metal (maybe debris, or maybe left over from the casting of the part) that was blocking the locking clamps from fully clamping the strings.

and the G string issues with the roller - that's just likely binding on the roller nut.

BTW, with the locking nut removed - how do you get it to intonate????  didja move the roller nut?
 

dbw

Senior member
Messages
4,531
Just tighten it more... what you describe is not possible if the locking nut is tight!  (I'm sure you've already tried this but I can't think of anything else  :dontknow:)
 

Orpheo

Senior member
Messages
2,738
mayfly said:
Here's my take on it.

Your locking nut was not locking.  I suspect that there was a piece of metal (maybe debris, or maybe left over from the casting of the part) that was blocking the locking clamps from fully clamping the strings.

and the G string issues with the roller - that's just likely binding on the roller nut.

BTW, with the locking nut removed - how do you get it to intonate????  didja move the roller nut?

Hi, I relocated the roller nut indeed. the roller nut is now the 'nut' as it 'should' be, and that works. not fine, but it works.

@DBW: I know, but I tightned it so fastly, I was afraid I'd break the wrench or the screws themselves! So, thats not the point. I don't know what or why, but with the locknut removed, it seems like the trem is a bit more stable right now, and locked down, she works fine now, finally. the philosophy 'simpli(city) the best' still holds its value, strangely enough ;)
 
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