Tone Woods

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I wonder if there's any reason that guitar magazines, arbiters of all knowledge about "tone", never ever ever do any double-blind tests asking experts or plebes to identify differences in woods, pickups, amps, speakers, guitar cords, picks... anything at all. It's the way they test beer, and toothpaste, and stereo systems, and lots of other things... you'd almost think that somebody had tried it once or twice, and found out that their "experts" can't hear any usefully-discernible differences.  :dontknow:

HMMMMM....

Very good question.  I'd be interested to find out what would come of this.

but conducting this kind of scientific testing would only serve to debunk the great majority of internet tone myths, which in turn would expose the many companies that feed these myths as a subtle means to increase sales thru advertising. if the companies were exposed, then they'd no longer pontificate about their anointed woods ... and this would result in less advertising $$$ to those magazines which need the revenue to remain in publication


the REAL anointed wood test would utilize several instruments of different woods (and for good measure, secretly include a couple wood recepie duplicates to ensure people are actually listening), all finished (i.e. painted) to look identical. line them up, choose a song as the test platform, fire up the band in a live venue with a half packed audience of discerning guitarists who know their tonewoods, let the sound tech work his majic to get the initial mix and then no further tweaking allowed, and then rotate thru the guitars one each per playing of the song ....... have the audience rate each guitar as to its tonal properties and also for the wood(s) used.

my $100 says that if the guitarist plays the same lines with the same pickup selection and tone settings (hey, the settings could be hardwired in the cavity to ensure no on stage tweaking) nobody in the room is going to be able to discern the difference between guitars, and that if there is anybody claiming to hear a difference - they consistently get it 'wrong' when compared to the tonal attributes you see posted across the internet.

after all, isn't the big mix when playing it live the true real life validation test?

all the best,

R

I tend to agree with this.  I'd like to see people actually identify one from the other.  My guess is that it wouldn't happen, as you also suspect.

But then, it leads to this.  A lot of the time, if I hear a guitar solo with a lot of bends and just vibrant notes, I can say, "That's a Fender," or, "That's a Les Paul."  Each of them have a very distinct tone to them.  So, while all the talk goes on about whether or not particular woods do have a huge impact on sound, couldn't this debunk the whole theory?  Here we have two guitars, made of wood, which sound completely different.

Okay, so now that we have two different guitars from two different brands, what if the pickups were swapped...say, 3 single coils from the Fender in the LP, and the two humbuckers from the LP in the Fender?  Would the Fender then sound like the LP, and vice-versa?

 

[Patrick from Davis]

One of the first steps in decifering tone between different woods for me was a good tube amp....SS amps are to steril when it comes to tone, for example: I have 2 guitars with basically the same pups, outputs are almost identical...Both have same pots  caps number of pots etc, yet one is mahogany with a wenge neck and the other is black korina with a wenge neck, and on the same settings on the amp, they both are uniquely different...And I know some say tonally mahogany and BK are similar, but they're not, BK is more dense than mahogany, so i'd say the choice of wood has an enormous impact on tone....Just my .02..... :dontknow:

it's great you hear a difference ... but can the audience hear the difference out in the house, or can anyone hear the difference in the final studio mix?

and the bigger question nobody really wants to ask themselves ... does anybody in the listening audience even really care?? (I came to grips with the answer to this question ... and now a P-bass is a regular part of my studio sessions and live performances)

all the best,

R

I doubt the audience could hear the difference.  Even with the test proposed, peoples ears get tired and attention wavers.  The folks that test, well, toothpaste know this, and actually account for the individuals that taste things.  They keep track of how long they are useful tester in a session.  The same effects go for the ears.  Engineers often talk about tired ears, and they are referring to this.  Individual players can hear the difference because their focus is different.  This is where I have the opinion that the guitar that sounds/plays well in your hands is the one to use rather than obsess too much on the materials.  If it makes you feel good for whatever reason, go with it.  For playing live, I like combo amps with an effects unit.  The simplest rig possible is the best in my opinion.  Get up there, turn it on, and be ready to go.  When done, wheel it out of there, put the guitar in it's case, and help the drummer break down his kit.  But what the guitar is made of will be lost on the audience.  All in all, the issue of tone is difficult with out some perspective to the situation.

When it gets to recording, it is another nest of opinions and problems.  But, I won't poke that sleeping bear right now.
Patrick

 

[Cagey]

It's an no-win situation. You'd no sooner present some scientific, objective and repeatable data before somebody who many believe is an authoritive source will claim that shaving his moustache off made a great deal of difference in tone. Who wants to fight battles like that? No matter what you do, say or measure, you're going to get the mindless party line.

Baseball been bery, bery good. To me.​

 

[Superlizard]

Now, when I think "music", I logically think of fairness and equality... not tone.

So, in the interest of fairness and equality (which is far more important than tone in the realm of music; of course), we'll
just state the following:

- all wood sounds the same
- all pickups sound the same
- all stomps sound the same
- all amps sound the same

As well:

- everyone has the same pair of ears
- everyone has the same amount of experience
- every player is just as talented as the next

...even those who never provide examples of their work.

 

[Strat Avenger]

I'd like to see the same blind-listening test on stainless steel frets.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I'd like to see the same blind-listening test on stainless steel frets.

I'll be happy to provide my guitar.  It has ss frets.  Anyone have one with nickels? 

 

[DangerousR6]

One of the first steps in decifering tone between different woods for me was a good tube amp....SS amps are to steril when it comes to tone, for example: I have 2 guitars with basically the same pups, outputs are almost identical...Both have same pots  caps number of pots etc, yet one is mahogany with a wenge neck and the other is black korina with a wenge neck, and on the same settings on the amp, they both are uniquely different...And I know some say tonally mahogany and BK are similar, but they're not, BK is more dense than mahogany, so i'd say the choice of wood has an enormous impact on tone....Just my .02..... :dontknow:

it's great you hear a difference ... but can the audience hear the difference out in the house, or can anyone hear the difference in the final studio mix?

and the bigger question nobody really wants to ask themselves ... does anybody in the listening audience even really care?? (I came to grips with the answer to this question ... and now a P-bass is a regular part of my studio sessions and live performances)

all the best,

R

In reality, for the most part the audience won't give a damn...As for can it be heard in the live setting or in the studio, yes....I grew up listening to SRV, Pink Floyd and the likes and had the opportunity to see them both live, and Gilmour and SRV both carried their studio tone into a live set.....But as stated 95% of the audience ain't gonna care, so from that point of view tone is probably moot.

 

[partialdoctor]

I recently did a little test. I have a swamp ash tele with a maple/PF neck and recently switched to a Goncolo Alves / PF neck. Same profile, same guitar, same frets, same everything except the wood. Both were recorded back to back into my computer using exact same settings. I even used the exact same set of strings. There was a definitive diffierence. The wood was the only difference in the two recordings.

 

[SkuttleFunk]

before this turns into another tone war .... nobody here has said that there is no difference, and nobody has claimed that you can't hear a difference when playing solo by yourself. can we leave that for one of those million other threads arguing that point?


Gilmore and SRV also use(d) amplifiers and effects in addition to their guitars. it would be interesting to see what differences the audience could hear if they both were to have run direct to the mixing console via cord out of their guitar -> direct box -> console


hey DR6 - I reread my previous post where I quoted yours ... it may read like I was pointing my reply at you. not what I was intending when I wrote it. I apologize if this is how you read it. I was not intending to point at anybody, but thought I was writing so it could easily be seen that I was talking in general and not to a specific person. (I'm leaving it unedited solely for the sake of transparency)

all the best,

R

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Okay, yeah, let's NOT start a "tone war."  That's NOT what I'm looking for.  Just a discussion of various opinions, and various comments from personal experiences, preferences, and all that good stuff.

Starting a "tone war" is going to land about the same place a Bolt-On vs. Set-Neck vs. Neck-Through is going to land...NOWHERE.

I think a lot of good points have been brought up that depending on the woods, tones would be affected much more with an acoustic guitar than with an electric.  That's not to say there may not be a difference with electrics, too, but I can definitely see there being a gigantic difference with acoustics. 

Aside from just hypothesizing on which woods ring and which ones don't, the only way to find out for sure would be to get two guitars which are the exact dimensions, but made out of different materials, and see which ones sustain the longest, etc. etc.

 

[pabloman]

Everyone is an expert and Nobody knows for sure :dontknow: :laughing7:

 

[stubhead]

My tone is better.

 

[DangerousR6]

before this turns into another tone war .... nobody here has said that there is no difference, and nobody has claimed that you can't hear a difference when playing solo by yourself. can we leave that for one of those million other threads arguing that point?


Gilmore and SRV also use(d) amplifiers and effects in addition to their guitars. it would be interesting to see what differences the audience could hear if they both were to have run direct to the mixing console via cord out of their guitar -> direct box -> console


hey DR6 - I reread my previous post where I quoted yours ... it may read like I was pointing my reply at you. not what I was intending when I wrote it. I apologize if this is how you read it. I was not intending to point at anybody, but thought I was writing so it could easily be seen that I was talking in general and not to a specific person. (I'm leaving it unedited solely for the sake of transparency)

all the best,

R

No apology necessary, I understood your meaning... :icon_thumright:

 

[Superlizard]

If you don't want to start a tone war, then just simply say, "all woods sound the same" or
"all amps sound the same", etc... .

We don't want hurt feelings by doing comparisons, now... mmmkay?

 

[Strat Avenger]

I recently did a little test. I have a swamp ash tele with a maple/PF neck and recently switched to a Goncolo Alves / PF neck. Same profile, same guitar, same frets, same everything except the wood. Both were recorded back to back into my computer using exact same settings. I even used the exact same set of strings. There was a definitive diffierence. The wood was the only difference in the two recordings.

I don't doubt that there was a difference, however I know for a fact that you can take two guitars, both made of the same body and neck wood, same hardware, shape, and construction, and same pickups, and they can sound different from one another.

With that said, it has been my personal experience that hard ash sounds more bright and sparkly (more treble) than alder.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I recently did a little test. I have a swamp ash tele with a maple/PF neck and recently switched to a Goncolo Alves / PF neck. Same profile, same guitar, same frets, same everything except the wood. Both were recorded back to back into my computer using exact same settings. I even used the exact same set of strings. There was a definitive diffierence. The wood was the only difference in the two recordings.

I don't doubt that there was a difference, however I know for a fact that you can take two guitars, both made of the same body and neck wood, same hardware, shape, and construction, and same pickups, and they can sound different from one another.

With that said, it has been my personal experience that hard ash sounds more bright and sparkly (more treble) than alder.

I can't comment on that, because I've never owned a guitar made of swamp ash, but one thing's for sure, my alder/maple/maple Warmoth rings forever.  It's really bright, and really vibrant.

 

[elfro89]

If you don't want to start a tone war, then just simply say, "all woods sound the same" or
"all amps sound the same."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paw_2EJBzFs

 

[m4rk0]

What's wrong with basswood?  People bash it.  What's wrong with indian cedro?  People bash that, too.  What about rosewood?  It's still regarded as cheap, and gets bashed...

Nothing wrong with Basswood! one of my best sounding guitars is made out of it, and so are a lot boutique guitars..
speaking of cheap wood..I have heard great samples of Pine Guitars, so I really need to start working on my Pine Tele....

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

What's wrong with basswood?  People bash it.  What's wrong with indian cedro?  People bash that, too.  What about rosewood?  It's still regarded as cheap, and gets bashed...

Nothing wrong with Basswood! one of my best sounding guitars is made out of it, and so are a lot boutique guitars..
speaking of cheap wood..I have heard great samples of Pine Guitars, so I really need to start working on my Pine Tele....

I'd be interested in hearing a pine Tele. 

 

[crash]

...with P90's