Three twisted necks and a re-radius

[rightintheface]

I posted here a few months back about my raw rosewood neck that has developed a slight counter-clockwise twist, creating a small hump at the 3rd fret which makes clean notes on the first three frets impossible.
A few weeks later I noticed my wenge neck has the same problem, albeit not quite as bad.
NOW - One of my clients has a great warmoth esquire with a raw, 1 piece, rosewood fatback neck. The thing is huge!! Problem is, his is ALSO twisting CCW, with a hump at the third fret...
So I have three necks of varying specs that all have the same problem.  :sad1:
I am a full-time tech so know what I'm doing and have tried everything to get the hump out, short of de-fretting and planing the boards. On top of this, all three truss rods are fully released of tension and are dead-straight - I.e. no relief. This makes the hump problem worse. Have tried hanging them without string tension for a few weeks in a climate-controlled room, one of them I tried with a neck press over a few weeks to gently force it into relief. None of this helped.

To clarify, all three are used raw, occasionally treated with lem-oil (not soaked, don't panic) when dry. All live in cases, properly taken care of, and live in different parts of the state.

Rosewood/ebony: pro construction, standard thin, 6105 frets - light strings.
Wenge/ebony: pro contruction, boatneck, 6150 SS frets - strings are heavy tops, light bottoms.
Rosewood 1 piece: Vintage modern, fatback, 6105 frets - strings are heavy tops, light bottoms.

I've always been a huge advocate of warmoth since building my tele in 2008, especially the exotic/raw neck aspect. But now I'm going to have to work on all three and probably use an oil finish on all the neck backs to hopefully prevent any more twisting/humping. Super disappointing as the raw backs feel incredible.

Before i email warmoth with this info, has this happened to anyone else? With one I thought "that's unlucky", the 2nd I thought "wow, really bad luck", but three? Now I'm thinking coincidence.

My client wants me to de-fret his neck, plane the board, re-radius to 9.5" (doesn't like the compound radius) and re-fret with SS frets. Has anyone had to plane/radius a warmoth board before? I'm specifically wondering how thick the fret markers are in case they get scraped out too deep.

I should also mention that I'm not trying to have a dig at W, my #1 and #2 and still my warmoth tele's and I still rave about the quality of the parts, but this issue is obviously pretty annoying and will involve lots of work to fix.

Any thoughts are welcome  :blob7:

 

[Hbom]

My experience with unfinished necks has been quite the opposite,
5 necks no twisting or bowing or anything bad.Only greatness.
Me thinks it best if you contact Warmoth and seek their advise.
Exotic woods do carry a warranty and I would defiantly check with them.

Good luck.

 

[Cagey]

Those are all very stable woods, and the Pro construction is also remarkably stable. It makes for a "set it and forget it" neck, regardless of most outside influences. To have 3 of them fail, and in the same way, is what I'd say is well past coincidence. It's certainly outside my experience, and there are thousands of people on this board who haven't related anything like that, either. In fact, you very rarely hear of neck failure at all. An unfinished Maple, Mahogany or Koa neck might go that route, which is why Warmoth won't warranty those if they're unfinished, but even then you rarely hear of it. Warmoth puts the number at 10%, and you'd thing they'd know.

It sounds like you know something about necks if you're able to re-radius/re-fret/refinish the little rascals, so I'd guess you wouldn't use the wrong terms about their condition. But, what you describe doesn't really sound like a "twist". I'd be curious how you're reaching that conclusion. I'm sure you know that "sighting" down the neck is next to useless unless the thing is essentially wrecked beyond repair. It's just a trick some techs at the counter use to pretend they can see things that your average human bean can't. There's too much parallax view, depth of field, issues, and on compound radii, distortions in planar presentation. But, it's always a safe bet to make because it's the rare neck that doesn't need some work.

Besides, a twist wouldn't create a "hump" anywhere. That sounds more like just some garden-variety fret movement or excessive wear, which isn't unheard of. Warmoth glues their frets in, but I've never been convinced that's a Good Thing. I think it's just something they do to make the fanatics happy. Kinda like DIY guys who shield control and pickup cavities. Sounds good, but is so close to worthless it's comical.

So... tell me. How do you know these necks are twisted?

 

[Re-Pete]

I am amazed to read of these neck stories.

I'm not dissing on you, not calling you out or anything, but my own experience with Warmoth necks (albeit finished maple & koa necks with ebony fretboards) has been different AND I've not seen stories here - or elsewhere - that even come close to this sort of neck carnage.

I'm genuinely surprised these problems have happened to the one person.

I would suggest contacting Warmoth, and if they want to, send them in some detailed photos. Were these necks ordered/made at about the same time as each other?

That these necks are raw, it may not be something that Warmoth can remedy for you via warranty, but they may have a genuine interest in why these necks failed.

 

[rightintheface]

Hey Cagey,
I agree, it is definitely beyond coincidence. Beyond that there's not a whole lot I agree with in your post.
First off - you can SEE the twist. Sighting down the neck is not some kind of cheap parlour trick, it is actually a useful way of generally gauging what a neck is doing. Combined with a precision straight edge, a notched straight edge, and some measuring tools, you can work out pretty much exactly what is happening with a neck. It's the same as sighting things by eye in construction - when backed up by precision instruments it still has a place, as long as you know what you're doing.
On my own rosewood neck I can sight down it and see the hump at the 3rd/4th fret clear as day, whereas the treble side is fine. My clients rosewood neck is the same but not as bad, and the wenge neck is less severe again. Sighting from the headstock end can also give an indication of twist, as you can see if the headstock is "level" with the body (more so with symmetrical headstock designs). Definitely not smoke and mirrors.
I've also heard (and seen) the benefits of glueing in frets. Yes, I have heard "dead" frets that have been removed, cleaned up, glued back in and are no longer "dead". If there is a void under a fret it can very much kill the sustain in some cases. Glueing them also greatly reduces the chances of spring-back, especially with under or over-radius'd fretwire (I see this a lot with chinese guitars). As a rule, I use glue on all re-fret jobs. More so on SS frets which are more likely to suffer springback due to the unforgiving stiffness of the material. In the end, warmoth aren't glueing down the frets for nothing - it's another cost and process, the benefits would have to outweigh this cost. IMO, they do.

I also disagree with your points on shielding in "some" cases, but not all. A lot of issues stem from ground loops within the wiring rather than the shielding itself, and using the shielding as an anchor point for proper star grounding can make a strat dead quiet. Just slapping shielding tape in without adjusting wiring to suit won't do much besides slightly blocking obvious RF sources, e.g. fluro lights etc. I've also seen noisy guitars fully shielded and star-grounded and this not have an effect at all. One of the wild mysteries of the electric guitar.

I should mention that I'm not claiming to be a mega-lord of tech work, and I'm not trying to be a know-it-all or a**hole. But my 9-5 job IS tech work, so I'm no bumpkin. I also do quality control for an importer of guitars from japan and china and have seen all sorts of neck twists and issues.
Like I've said as well, I'm a big advocate of warmoth products, and still have my two W tele's as my main axes. Just seeing if anyone has suffered similar problems before I email warmoth and see what's what.

 

[rightintheface]

Hey Re-Pete,
I'm just as surprised as you mate. Unfortunately all three necks are out of warrant. All three were custom ordered, mine were ordered in 2008 (wenge/ebony) and 2009 (rosewood/ebony) and the customers one piece rosewood neck was I think 2010. He seems to know a few people that have had issues with Warmoth necks, but I can't comment without seeing them and knowing for certain if this was user error rather than manf. problem. I've also been on this forum since 2008 and can't recall seeing anyone else with neck issues with exotic raw necks either  :dontknow:

I'll definitely get in touch with W just to let them know, they have always been really great with my orders etc so no hard feelings on that front  :icon_thumright:

 

[Re-Pete]

I was just half guessing that maybe just maybe it might have been done at the same time, and perhaps a manufacturing fault or wood curing problem.... But being made in 3 separate orders over 3 years kinda disses that 'conspiracy theory' doesn't it?

All the best in getting the problems fixed somehow. I'm sure your client will think you are a magician if you can save their guitar neck.

 

[Cagey]

I should mention that I'm not claiming to be a mega-lord of tech work, and I'm not trying to be a know-it-all or a**hole. But my 9-5 job IS tech work, so I'm no bumpkin. I also do quality control for an importer of guitars from japan and china and have seen all sorts of neck twists and issues.

I don't think you're any kind of bumpkin, and I'm sure you have a great deal of experience. You wouldn't be able to do what you do otherwise.

Personally, as I mentioned before, unless a neck is absolutely wrecked, I usually can't see it by just sighting down the thing. I've tried it a million times, and they all look bad. Perhaps they all were bad. But, I can look down a neck I've made right and it still looks bad. There are optical anomalies that make it difficult to get any good information that way.

That's not to say you can't see a bad neck. I almost got my ass kicked a couple years ago over it. Woman wanted to buy an acoustic for her granddaughter, but wanted somebody along who know about such things. We went to this guy's house, saw the guitar, and it wasn't even strung - probably on purpose - because the neck was a wreck. Couldn't have played it if it was strung up. Took 3 seconds to see it, and I told the guy to throw it in the fireplace; it would be a crime to sell it.

Yeah, I'm real subtle  :icon_biggrin:

He got all pissed off, called me everything but white, blah, blah, woof, woof. I'm not kidding - I've seen straighter slaloms. Even if you re-fretted it, you'd have to grind about 1/8" off the fretboard to level it.

Long story short, we were out of there.