Thoughts on Roasted Alder and translucent color?

[redking]

Hey Guys... 
Back after a long time away and a new Warmoth project soon to be shipped.  I saw that they were doing roasted woods now, so I had to try the classic Alder body / Maple and Rosewood combo with them. 

I would like to do a thin translucent sonic blue kinda finish and I was thinking the following should work but after a quick search of the forum, I don't see where anyone has tried this.  Wondering what the finishing pros here might think of this combo:

- sealer coat of thinned true Shellac from flakes
- typical Minwax type water based sonic blue (or similar) stain
- True Oil top coat

I think this combo should work - my understanding is that everything sticks to Shellac pretty well.  I think the underlying color of the roasted wood is definitely going to darken up the tone of the blue and the Tru Oil should add and amber tint over it (both which I like in theory but definitely want to test this out).  Am I missing any important considerations here?

I typically don't like to grain fill but may do so here once I see the body.  I have seen where grain fill has been done before sealer, after sealer and after the color wash coat (like a TV Yellow finish).  Is there a consensus here lately?  I feel like there are no rules anymore on finishing.. lol.

Cheers guys!

 

[bagman67]

Hey. Redking, welcome back.

A few thoughts.

First, the shellac sealer coat sounds like a good start.  VERY IMPORTANT:  use dewaxed shellac.  Some shellac has wax in it and hat will inhibit adhesion of the subsequent coatings.  Any particular reason you're thinking of mixing your own vs. a premixed product?  Between buying the flakes and the alcohol to dissolve it, you may no save any money in the long run.  But if you have it on hand and already know what you're doing with shellac, might as well use those skills and materials.

Second, alder has a very tight grain so will not need to be filled.  Generally alder does not have a very interesting grain pattern, so going with a translucent color may not yield particularly striking results, but that's purely a matter of taste.

Third, I think you can probably get a translucent sonic blue by taking Minwax's whitewash pickling stain and tinting it with a universal tint such as Mixol.  There are color cards for Mixol here.  I would take several fluid ounces of the Minwax product and tint to taste by just adding a drop at a time of Mixol no. 9 or no. 32.  A drop or so of black might take the edge off a too-bright blue, but I would be extremely cautious. 

http://www.mixol.com/colour-cards/colour-card-tinting-concentrates/26-66.html

Finally, you can topcoat with Tru-oil, but bear in mind Tru-oil is no as durable as, say, Minwax Polycrylic or other wipe-on poly products, and will impart a slightly amber tint that will darken with age.  Poly is water-clear and won't generally darken.

As always, test your finishing schedule on a piece of scrap.  Have fun!  And always remember, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS TO A GOOD FINISH, BUT PLENTY OF SHORTCUTS TO A GIANT HEADACHE.

 

[Cagey]

I typically don't like to grain fill but may do so here once I see the body.  I have seen where grain fill has been done before sealer, after sealer and after the color wash coat (like a TV Yellow finish).  Is there a consensus here lately?  I feel like there are no rules anymore on finishing.. lol.

Alder rarely, if ever, needs grain filling. Also, as Bagman pointed out, it's pretty rare you'd want to expose its grain as there generally isn't any. It's a pretty non-descript wood.

Sealer is used to prevent the wood from soaking up stain unevenly. That's important with Alder since it's a bit like Maple in that it has varying densities so it doesn't take stain consistently. Ends up looking splotchy.

Rather than sealing/staining/clear coating, you might be better off with no sealer and a tinted color coat of [insert finish material here]. That way, you have fewer steps and the color will come out evenly. Since it's transparent, you might even get away without a clear coat.

But, as before, get some scrap and play with that first. You'll learn more doing that than any amount of reading will get you.

 

[redking]

Thanks to you both for your comments!

I do have a bag of de-waxed flakes and solvent on hand, so that is why I was going to use it.  I have it left over from my very first Warmoth guitars from a few years ago. 
I wasn't sure what to expect with the grain on the alder as I have never had a raw alder body before so that is good to know..
I like your idea about the tinted whitewash - it is actually a better description and way to achieve the vision I have in my head.  I don't necessarily want a translucent finish as much as an "antique furniture" look.  Great advice and I will check out those tints for sure.
Regarding the Tru Oil, I have finished 2 Precision Guitar kits with Tru Oil and I generally like the results, although I wish I did do at least a sealer with the mahogany on those, because the end grain soaked up alot more color from the aniline dyes I used on those.  But generally speaking I do like the ambering effect of the Tru Oil as opposed to a truly clear look.  Although, with my neck being roasted maple as well, I wonder if it would look better with an Antique White with some ambering as opposed to the sonic blue.

Any particular reason you're thinking of mixing your own vs. a premixed product?  Between buying the flakes and the alcohol to dissolve it, you may no save any money in the long run.  But if you have it on hand and already know what you're doing with shellac, might as well use those skills and materials.

Second, alder has a very tight grain so will not need to be filled.  Generally alder does not have a very interesting grain pattern, so going with a translucent color may not yield particularly striking results, but that's purely a matter of taste.

Third, I think you can probably get a translucent sonic blue by taking Minwax's whitewash pickling stain and tinting it with a universal tint such as Mixol.  There are color cards for Mixol here.  I would take several fluid ounces of the Minwax product and tint to taste by just adding a drop at a time of Mixol no. 9 or no. 32.  A drop or so of black might take the edge off a too-bright blue, but I would be extremely cautious. 

http://www.mixol.com/colour-cards/colour-card-tinting-concentrates/26-66.html

Finally, you can topcoat with Tru-oil, but bear in mind Tru-oil is no as durable as, say, Minwax Polycrylic or other wipe-on poly products, and will impart a slightly amber tint that will darken with age.  Poly is water-clear and won't generally darken.

As always, test your finishing schedule on a piece of scrap.  Have fun!  And always remember, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS TO A GOOD FINISH, BUT PLENTY OF SHORTCUTS TO A GIANT HEADACHE.

Definitely, my reasoning for the Shellac sealer is my concern about uneven absorption having never worked with Alder before.  I do have some scrap maple in my shop, so I will practice with that first before going full bore.  I'm armed with more experience this time and have learned from past mistakes on 2 previous Warmoths and 2 Precision kits.  Rule #1 - Slow down and think / plan!  Rule #2 - Test it out first! 

The other thing I'm thinking ahead about is how to bury the waterslide decal on the headstock.  I think I will spray a dusting of Zinser shellac over the face of the headstock / decal to seal the ink before I start adding layers of Tru Oil so I don't smudge the ink.  On my Precision kits I sprayed rattlecan Nitro on the face of the headstock to bury the decal, but I would rather not spray that nasty stuff again unless I absolutely have to lol...

Sealer is used to prevent the wood from soaking up stain unevenly. That's important with Alder since it's a bit like Maple in that it has varying densities so it doesn't take stain consistently. Ends up looking splotchy.

Rather than sealing/staining/clear coating, you might be better off with no sealer and a tinted color coat of [insert finish material here]. That way, you have fewer steps and the color will come out evenly. Since it's transparent, you might even get away without a clear coat.

But, as before, get some scrap and play with that first. You'll learn more doing that than any amount of reading will get you.

 

[redking]

Just had a thought after seeing some antique furniture re-finishing videos on YT....has anyone tried "milk paint" on a guitar here?