Thermo Treated Wood

[t.coyle]

So I read about Thermo Treated wood on a website for a guitar company called Ruokangas a while ago. From my understanding it is a process where they heat up the wood to high temperatures while steaming the wood to make sure it does not burn. It basicaly ages the wood and makes it stronger and stable its also sapposed to change the sound of the wood and make it ring longer and louder. They have some graphs for what it does along with some numbers on the sites below. I know that Warmoths necks are pretty stable due to the dual action trossrod, But it would be nice to have the extra bit of strength even if the improvement in sound is not really noticeable.

I wonder if Warmoth has ever looked into this. I am not sure about cost or anything like that but it seems like something that would make a guitar more stable and sound a bit better. Does anyone know if warmoth has looked into Thermo Treating there wood? Also do any of you know if they would be willing to do a special order where you could have them send out the wood before milling and have it thermo treated and then have them build the parts for you like normal?



Here is the site that I first heard about it from:
http://www.ruokangas.com/?p=1859

Here Is an article about it:
http://www.ruokangas.com/wp/?p=1871

And heres a site that has more info on it and it has a list of the places to get Thermo Treated wood in America:
http://www.thermotreatedwood.com/what.html

 

[ORCRiST]

I dunno about 'Thermotreating' their wood, but a while back - I took the 'virtual tour' of the Warmoth factory on thier website and I recall seeing some pictures about special area's where wood is dried and cured.  :dontknow:

ORC

 

[dbw]

Warmoth has towering piles of kiln-dried lumber that they will use to beat up these Ruokangas guys.  This sounds like a gimmick.

 

[t.coyle]

Well it is used by a bunch of different industries because it does make the wood stronger and last longer. Some other musical instrument manufacturers use it in Finland but I hadnt seen anywhere that they use it to improve tone they seem to use it more because of its strength. Its used for construction and furniture making because it removes some organic compounds that can rot out the wood so it makes it resistant to weather. I think that it at least is more stable because it is used by a bunch of different companies. It is just now making its way over here to America so its a fairly new thing and it is pretty normal for people not to embrace new technologies so I understand the skepticism.

A big reasons I was interested in the thermo treatment is because people talk about the aged wood in vintage guitars makes them sound better than some of the newer Instruments. I know that there a lot of other factors just besides the wood that make vintage guitars sound the way they do but from what ive read the older wood is more relaxed and more stable and this process makes the Thermo Treated wood identical to naturally aged wood. But the main reason I am interested in Thermo Treatment seems more stable from the tests they have done than regular kiln dried wood, I hate adjusting my necks because I never do it right also I dont like going to a luthier and paying them to have it done. I know that warmoth necks are pretty stable on there own but I dont think this would hurt.

I guess I should contacted them If I want to ask if Thermo Treatment Is possible, I just thought it would be good to see what other people on the board think about it and if they have had any first hand experiences with it first.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Sounds gimmicky to me.  The whole idea of kiln drying is to remove moisture to make it stable.  If moisture is added with heat, it would have to be kiln dried later anyway for the previously stated reasons.  I don't see how the process could make it stronger because it's wood and not metal being tempered.  As far as lasting longer, other than the ongoing Basswood debate, I've never and will never wear out the wood of the guitar.  If you want stronger and more sustain, there's always Maple for necks, bodies, and fingerboards.

One more thing, the nostalgic Nitro types claim that a thin finish that "breathes" is the best sounding finish, the moisture would eventually get out in this situation as if it were never done.

 

[t.coyle]

I am not sure how the whole process works but it says that it is actually too dry and brittle after the process is done to use imediately, I guess you have to wait four weeks to let it aclimate and gain some moisture back. It said that the moisture content is close to zero after the process so its neccesary to let it gain some back. It does sound confusing though adding water to reduce moisture content and then reintroduce moisture to it afterwards.

I guess the real test is to try it for yourself but I do not live in Finland so Im not sure how that would work. Hopefully Ill find a way to get an instrument with this kind of wood some day and then Ill let you guys know my thoughts on it then.

 

[wolf5150]

Suhr and Anderson have both started offering this " cooked " maple.

Suhr in particular are very vocal about it's benefits, they call it VULCANIZED and here's a pic

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

In Suhr's case, is it the finish.  A pic of the "vulcanized" wood with a finish over it?

 

[ev1ltwin]

In Suhr's case, is it the finish.  A pic of the "vulcanized" wood with a finish over it?

I think that's just the color of the wood after it's been "cooked". i remember reading some music zoo blog post about this a while back. the pic is of an unfinished maple neck: http://www.themusiczoo.com/blog/2009/can-you-smell-what-the-music-zoo-is-cooking/

 

[wolf5150]

That neck is unfinished and how it looks after it's been " Vulcanized "

I've never seen it or heard it, but it sounds very interesting.. a maple neck that needs no finishing, is more stable and has better overtones can't be bad  :guitarplayer2:

 

[drewfx]

Unlike the romantic fantasy world that people describe when talking about these types of things, my experience is that in the real world there are always tradeoffs. Some examples:

more strength in one direction = less in another
toxicity
prohibitive cost
weight
more susceptible to damage during "normal" use
distortion
noise
heat
...

Rarely in the real world to you get anything great for free. So my question is, "What are the tradeoffs involved in this process, as there must be some?"

 

[wolf5150]

Yea.. it costs more  :icon_tongue:

 

[t.coyle]

For the thermo treated wood the negatives I read about was that when working with the wood after the treatment if your tools are not sharp enough it can have tear outs a little easier. Also it makes the wood slightly darker, not as dark as the Vulcanized kind pictured but a noticeable difference so if your looking for a real pale maple that wont be for you. Another thing is that it does not work on all wood, some exotic woods it seems to make too brittle and there are different treatments for each speices of wood. And lastly the cost I am not sure of but some things like this cost rediculous amounts of money.

On the positive side it is sapposed to use less energy to Thermo Treat wood as compared to Kiln Drying. Also all that is used is water so there are no chemicals involved. For the Thermo Treated Wood there are different lengths that they cook it and the different lengths make them stronger and the color much darker. The first level of Thermo treatment is what is suggested for instruments and its the lightest color, all of the darker ones I assumed were too stiff for musical instruments so maybe this Vulcanizing is a totally different process

 

[oldmanatc]

The purpose of aging wood (or dry kilning it) is to remove moister without decomposing the wood. Either way it removes the water content of the wood. This is why the woods have tone. To infuse moisture into the wood seems to be counter-productive. While it may look pretty, that doesn't always produce the best tone. Old wood=better tone, this isn't really a subjective opinion either.

 

[ev1ltwin]

The purpose of aging wood (or dry kilning it) is to remove moister without decomposing the wood. Either way it removes the water content of the wood. This is why the woods have tone. To infuse moisture into the wood seems to be counter-productive. While it may look pretty, that doesn't always produce the best tone. Old wood=better tone, this isn't really a subjective opinion either.

you are correct. it is counter-productive. the process actually removes moisture from the wood. this is from the Ruokangas guitars website:

"There are several benefits – the wood stabilizes (ability to absorb moisture decreases), stiffness increases, the weight drops, sound velocity increases, the wood colour deepens and the wood resonates better (partially because of the increased sound velocity)"

the weight drop is the water leaving the wood.

 

[-CB-]

Well it is used by a bunch of different industries because it does make the wood stronger and last longer. Some other musical instrument manufacturers use it in Finland but I hadnt seen anywhere that they use it to improve tone they seem to use it more because of its strength. Its used for construction and furniture making because it removes some organic compounds that can rot out the wood so it makes it resistant to weather. I think that it at least is more stable because it is used by a bunch of different companies. It is just now making its way over here to America so its a fairly new thing and it is pretty normal for people not to embrace new technologies so I understand the skepticism.

A big reasons I was interested in the thermo treatment is because people talk about the aged wood in vintage guitars makes them sound better than some of the newer Instruments. I know that there a lot of other factors just besides the wood that make vintage guitars sound the way they do but from what ive read the older wood is more relaxed and more stable and this process makes the Thermo Treated wood identical to naturally aged wood. But the main reason I am interested in Thermo Treatment seems more stable from the tests they have done than regular kiln dried wood, I hate adjusting my necks because I never do it right also I dont like going to a luthier and paying them to have it done. I know that warmoth necks are pretty stable on there own but I dont think this would hurt.

I guess I should contacted them If I want to ask if Thermo Treatment Is possible, I just thought it would be good to see what other people on the board think about it and if they have had any first hand experiences with it first.

From Wikipedia
There is ongoing research as to whether heat treatments can be used to make timber more durable. By heating timber to a certain temperature, it may be possible to make the wood-fibre less appetising to insects. Although unlikely to be as effective as chemical preservatives, anecdotal evidence suggests some consumers would prefer chemical-free timber preservation methods.

Heat treatment can also improve the properties of the wood with respect to water: lower equilibrium moisture, less moisture deformation, and weather resistance. It is weather-resistant enough to be used, unprotected, in facades or in kitchen tables, where wetting is expected.

There are 3 similar European heat treatments: Retiwood, developed in France, Thermowood, developed in Finland by VTT, and Platowood developed in The Netherlands. These processes autoclave the treated wood, subjecting it to pressure and heat, along with nitrogen or water vapour to control drying in a staged treatment process ranging from 24 to 48 hours at temperatures of 180 to 230 °C depending on timber species. These processes increase the durability, dimensional stability and hardness of the treated wood by at least one class; however, the treated wood is darkened in colour, and there are changes in certain mechanical characteristics: specifically, the modulus of elasticity is increased to 10%, and the modulus of rupture is diminished by 5% to 20%; thus, the treated wood requires drilling for nailing to avoid splitting the wood. Certain of these processes cause less of an impact than others in their the mechanical effects upon the treated wood. Wood treated with this process is often used for cladding or siding, flooring, furniture and windows.


As far as "old wood" sounding better.... you better take that with a big serving of reality - realizing that the hype has always been "anything you can't get now, is better"  and usually presented by persons or groups that possess some of that very same item.  There are lots of good - VERY good - sounding axes made today, better than many "old wood" axes of years earlier. 

 

[DesmoDog]

...the weight drops, sound velocity increases, the wood colour deepens and the wood resonates better (partially because of the increased sound velocity)

I'm super skeptical about htis but haven' tsaid anything because hey, what the heck do I know about wood.

But, as for sound? Sound travels faster through a denser medium. I don't see how dropping the weight can lead to higher sound velocities... unless the wood is changing dimensionally too, I just don't see that happening. Cettainly I can see it changing frequency response and damping responses, but not higher velocity.

 

[bagman67]

...the weight drops, sound velocity increases, the wood colour deepens and the wood resonates better (partially because of the increased sound velocity)

I'm super skeptical about htis but haven' tsaid anything because hey, what the heck do I know about wood.

But, as for sound? Sound travels faster through a denser medium. I don't see how dropping the weight can lead to higher sound velocities... unless the wood is changing dimensionally too, I just don't see that happening. Cettainly I can see it changing frequency response and damping responses, but not higher velocity.

Further in response to that "sound travels faster" claim - how much difference are we talking about, if anyone's bothered to measure?  Futhermore, over  a 25.5 scale length, sound travels pretty dang fast anyway...assuming for the sake of argument that the assertion is correct, and sound velocity increases, the delta in rapidity with which the sound would travel that distance pre- and post-treatment seems likely to be negligible, at best -  and imperceptible to a human.  And considering the sound you and I can perceive is actually traveling through the air at the time we perceive it anyway, and not the guitar body - well, I'd take it with a  pretty substantial grain of salt.  I don't know many electric guitar players who want their audiences to place their ears directly against their guitars (hot chix in the audience aside).

I'm not saying the heat treatment doesn't work, because I have no empirical basis for saying one way or the other - I'm just saying the reasons given reek to high heaven of bogusness.

"Hey, Zeke, tell'em it makes the sound travel faster!  They'll eat that up!"

"I reckon so, Clem!  Mebbe we'll be able to sell these discolored necks after all!"

Just sayin', is all.

 

[rossalex]

Suhr and Anderson have both started offering this " cooked " maple.

Suhr in particular are very vocal about it's benefits, they call it VULCANIZED and here's a pic

Oh my god.... what is this guitar!

 

[t.coyle]

I read all that stuff from the sites on the links I posted and it said how much longer the wood rang out compared to kiln dried wood. It was an improvement but I am not an expert so I do not know how audible it would be. It said something about it crystalizing the stuff inside the wood so it rang longer. The main thing that I liked about it is that it is stronger than kiln dried, It says the strength increase too but I cant remember what it was but hey if it makes it stronger and possibly makes it ring longer and (depending on desired sound)sound better that sounds good to me. The other site I put a link to is not related to the Ruokangas, just a site for Thermo Treated wood so I dont its just snake oil.

And yeah I agree that older wood sounding better is an opinion, some might ring longer but it would sound different than a new neck and some people might like the tone. But I like the idea of old wood having less stress in it being a little more stable. If the tone isnt exactly what I like I could experiment with pickups and electronics and stuff, but I prob wouldnt though unless it sounded terrible which I dont think it would. I understand that all guitars need neck adjustments every once in a while but I just dont like to do it because Id rather just play the damn thing, so anything that would cut down on that im all for. Accept for composite materials, I know they are sturdy but Im not so sure about the sound.