The Music Theory thread

[lafromla1]

I just picked up Desi Serna's Fretboard Theory book and I really like the way its laid out.  It does however, require you to listen to and/or practice parts of real songs to get the understanding of what's being taught. So you'll need to somehow acquire some of those if you dont already own them.  I did not buy the accompanying DVD's, which it has, as I can bounce questions of my guitar instructor.  It does talk about the CAGED theory as well as going through Pentatonic and other scales.

 

[hannaugh]

Wow, thanks for all the great responses, guys.  This is a good dialogue.  

I would love it if you could share with us where/how you're learning the CAGED system stuff, rockskate4x.  I've come across a little of it in the country section of the guitartricks site, but it kind of just glossed over it.  It seems like something that has a lot of potential, but in the lessons I did they basically just said "Here are these scales, practice them," and there hasn't been a whole lot about practical application of that knowledge (not yet anyways).  

Anyways, I agree with Max about Cb and I will explain why.  They are the same notes in real life as B and F, but Cb and E# do exist on paper.  For all intents and purposes, there is no difference between the two, but let's just say you are writing sheet music and you want to write out a G# Major scale.  Odds are that will never happen, because 9 times out of 10 you're going to see an Ab Major scale instead because of the double sharp F that is included in that scale.  But what do you do when you get the D# and you want to write the note that is two half steps above it in the scale?  In reality that note is F, but if you write the F on paper, going from D# to F would visually look like it is more than two half steps, which can be confusing when you're reading music.  So you write it as E# instead, and then follow up with a double accidental F and then you get a nice even scale pattern on your staff paper where a whole step and a half step are always the same distance away from each other on the ledger lines.  Double accidentals, E#, and Cb are really just there because if they weren't, there would be two different definitions of what a half step looks like on paper, which would be visually harder to read.  

Is it kind of stupid and very technically nitpicky?  Yeah.  Can you completely ignore it and still get by in music?  Totally.  But it does exist in sheet music.  If you want to read more on this, you can check out this page: http://www.fretbank.com/basics/scales/page3.html

Anywho, moving on to intervals... which I'll post about tomorrow unless someone else gets to it first.  It's getting late and I have practicing to do.  

 

[BassmanAK]

Found this about CAGED: http://www.cagedguitarsystem.net/
It's new to me, so I don't know if it's good or not....
And yes.... Bassists can learn from this stuff too.....
A good bassline is actually a song length solo.....
From our POV, anyway..... :icon_biggrin:

 

[Volitions Advocate]

now when you go to the next scale, (using the circle of 5ths) we come to G, G has 1 sharp,, let us look at this, G is the 5th tone of C, the key of G has 1 sharp
why
well the notes are G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G,  why?
go back to the intervals of a major scale  1,s,2,s,3,4,s,5,s,6,s,7,1

This is an interesting way to think about it for beginners.  I myself didn't realize what keys were until i started taking theory, and that key signatures were not just made up, but that they follow a pattern, and certain shaprs or flats are not present without other certain sharps or flats.

I agree with everything justatele said, not that it can be disputed at all, it's all fact.

Maybe I can offer another viewpoint to help figure it out as well, to go along with the spirit of Hannaugh's idea behind this thread.  Which also ties into the idea of intervals.  That she want's to touch on next.

to understand scales and intervals I always found it important to understand the difference between major, minor and perfect intervals.  If you look at the model Justatele shows us of wwhwwwh starting from C that makes all the intervals from C either major or perfect (this is a major scale) D is a Major 2nd, E is a Major 3rd, F is a Perfect 4th, G is a perfect 5th, then Major 6th and 7th and then octave.  If you look at the way these intervals are sorted, if you drop the 2nd by a semitone, then you only have an interval of a minor second.  Drop the 3rd by a semitone, you have a minor 3rd.  This also works for the 6th and 7th.  It all corresponds to how you see the notes on a staff.  If C on a treble clef is on the 3rd space from the bottom, any note on the line above it is a 2nd, no matter what the quality.  if it is a D it is a major 2nd, if it is a Db is it a minor second.  If it is a D# it is larger than a major 2nd, technically sounds the same as an Eb which is a minor third up from C. BUT since the note is on the D line, it is an Augmented 2nd.  If it was a Dbb (D double flat) it would sound the same as a C, but again. since it is on the D line, it is still the interval of a 2nd. This time a Diminished 2nd.  which sounds the same as a Unison.  these types of intervals with different names and the same sound are called Enharmonic.  A dimished second sounds the same as a unison.  An augmented 2nd sounds the same as a minor 3rd etc.

Then you get to Perfect intervals.  unisons, 4ths, 5ths, and octaves.  Perfect octaves cannot have major or minor quality.  if you flatten a perfect fourth, it becomes diminished, not minor, which is enharmonically equivalent to a major 3rd.  If you sharpen a fifth, it becomes augmented and the same as a minor 6th.  Unisons cannot be diminished (because of notation on the staff, where the lower note is always first) but they can be augmented.  So what happens when you flat a fifth or sharp a 4th?  Both a Dimished 5th and an augmented 4th are also the same enharmonic interval.  This is called the Tritone (3 full tones or major 2nds stacked on top of each other).  The tritone is supposed to be the most sour sounding and dissonant interval, and this is where we get our keys from.

I know its a mouthful to swallow but its the prerequisite to understanding why we have keys and how they are determined.  A tritone is exactly the halfway mark between the ocatves.  If we're talking western music here (and we are) than its important to know that the church was the biggest influence on how music was defined.  The tritone, because it sounded so awful to them im the medieval era, was called the devils tone, and at all costs it was to be avoided.

if C is the first key we start with, because it has no sharps or flats,  there is no tritone from C, because the tritone from C would have to be Gb or F#, but between B and F there is a tritone. F being the 4th note and B being the 7th,  This is the case in all major scales.  So if you're writing a song or tune in C major, you might possibly run into that B to F or F to B interval, (which would mean you're possesed by the devil or something, and that is bad obviously) so the goal is to neutralize the tritone.  So what do you do?  Raise the F to F# and there is no more B to F.  Of course this creates another tritone, between C and F#.  But before we deal with that, we have to name the key.  if the tri tone between scale notes 4 and 7 is C and F#, then the first note of the scale must be G.  Thus we have G major.  which has 1 sharp (F) in the key signature. (And yes.. is also one fifth up from C).

It goes the other way as well.  if the original Tritone is B to F, flatten the b to Bb, making the tritone Bb to E, which makes the first note of the Scale F,  Which is a fifth lower than C.  In this way you just go around, fixing the tritones by either flattening or sharpening the next note.  If you go with sharps you follow this pattern: F C G D A E B.  and opposite with flats, B E A D G C F.  And the Keys are named by intervals of fifths, or following the circle of fifths as justatele said.

 

[Superlizard]

Tritone:

For a couple great examples of the Tritone in effect ("Devil's Interval"), Black Sabbath has a couple
tunes which feature it (go figure heheheh):

- main riff in "Black Sabbath" off their 1st album "Black Sabbath"
- very beginning riff during the "squealie guitars" intro (and later) in "Zero The Hero" off "Born Again" album; slightly different pattern than above mentioned riff

Sounds pretty sinister.

 

[ORCRiST]

You guys are nuts.

I can wrap my head around astrophysics and quantum mechanics much more easily than music theory. If it wasn't for tablature,
I would SO totally be screwed. Hell, I'm proud of myself that I can remember my guitar strings are E, A, G, D, B, E (if thats
even right), LOL. I do enjoy learning as much as I can, I guess I just need a music theory foundation for Dumbies book or something.

Still, its not like I'm in a band - I just try and learn music from my favorite bands and songs.

I keep an eye on this thread to see if I can't learn a thing or two...

:rock-on:

ORC

 

[tfarny]

Applied theory to musical (melodic) guitar playing: http://www.amazon.com/Chord-Tone-Soloing-Guitarists-Improvising/dp/0634083651
CAGED system, modes, drills, practice tracks, etc. It's all in there. That book has at least a year's worth of lessons in it.

 

[hannaugh]

I'm going to reorganize some of this info as we go so it's a little easier to see visually and hopefully to understand.

So a quick definition of intervals: and interval is the distance between two notes.  A half step is the most basic unit.  It's between one fret and the next.  If you count two half steps, you get a whole step.  There are major, minor, perfect, augmented, and diminished intervals.  The major scale is made up of major and perfect intervals, and the minor scale is made up of minor and perfect intervals. 

The major scale:

no distance = unison
2 half steps or 1 whole step = major 2nd
4 half steps or 2 whole steps = major 3rd
5 half steps = perfect 4th
7 half steps = perfect 5th
9 half steps = major 6th
11 half steps = major 7th
12 half steps = octave

The natural minor scale (there are actually 3 different minor scales used in classical study, but we can have something about that later)

no distance = unison
1 half step = minor 2nd
3 half steps = minor 3rd
5 half steps = perfect 4th
7 half steps = perfect 5th
8 half steps = minor 6th
10 half steps = minor 7th
12 half steps = octave

So major, minor, and perfect are our "basic" intervals, and augmented and diminished are our "advanced" intervals. 

An augmented interval has one more than a major or perfect interval, and a diminished interval has one less than a minor or perfect interval.  The reason for this is explained pretty
clearly in this book I have, so I'll put in a quote from that:

"... there are two more types of intervals that deal with the issue of enharmonic spellings of notes and other such anomalies: augmented and diminished intervals. 
As you know, the interval from C to Eb and that of C to D# sound exactly the same.  The only thing that's different is the spelling of D# and the Eb.  If you remember, that's called
enharmonic.
Now, the spelling of those intervals will change as the note changes its name-- this is regardless of whether or not those intervals "sound" exactly the same.  For example, if the
interval is spelled from Cb to Eb, the interval is called a minor 3rd.  If the interval is spelled C to D#, you can't call it a minor 3rd anymore.  3rd intervals are reserved for intervals of 3
notes (C to E).  Since this is an interval from C to D, it has to be called a second of some sort.  In this case, the correct name is an augmented second."

So another way to show how it works is like this:

diminished < minor < major > augmented

diminished < perfect > augmented

 

[Jusatele]

I have to assume something or this is going get real difficult to keep in an order that will not confuse

I will assume that
Everyone posting is asking a question, not trying to expand on anything, that way we introduce material in a orderly fashion
Second, that those reading this took my advice and got the book on guitar method I suggested, The lessons will be structured on that
Third, that the guys not wanting to learn to read music will understand that when we cover stuff, they will have a harder time as they will need to understand stuff that is being absorbed naturally by those reading music.

Anyone who plays guitar, and is learning fingering and stuff, they should be able to get to page 30 if that book in 2 to 3 weeks if they try. In that time they will have learned:
The notes on the guitar fingerboard, on the staff, while singing and saying the tones up to the 3rd fret all the way down,
The staff, The Clef, Notes and values, Time signature, Chords on a staff, Sharps, Flats, Sweep Picking is introduced, Dynamics *getting louder or softer, Rest, Tied notes and Dotted notes.
All these have been laid into the mind as you were learning the notes and you may not have even noticed how much you absorbed

The next 8 pages of that book get you into your first 2 keys with a sharp or a flat, If you spend a week with each, you should have those down packed

 

[Jusatele]

In support of the first lesson
Circle of 5ths, right now we are using this to find our scales

That means the outside of it and the Staff first inside
The outside is our scale ( notice the bottom 3 have 2 names) there are 12 major scales
On the staffs, are flats, sharps, or nothing, that is how we tell what key we are in, 1 sharp is G, we have a sharp tone in G, it is F#, 2 sharps is D, the sharps are F# and C#.
Notice the sharps and flats are on the line of space of that note on the staff.
As you learn to red music, you are slowly introduced to these scales and the become natural to you, as of right now we will ignore the inner circle as we will hit on Minor scales and Keys in our 2nd lesson.

 

[Jusatele]

Minor Keys
Notice that is keys not scales

We have 12 minor keys
They are the Natural Minors to their Major scale
On the circle of fifths the are the inner keys, below their Major key
They differ from a major in the position of that whole whole half whole whole whole half circle they start on. They start in the 6th position, not the first, so they go whole half whole whole half whole whole.
They are called minor because they have a minor interval between the first and third tone

Intervals
As you notice a scale has 7 named tones, but they only have 12 tones, should that not be 14
Nope, there is no step between B and C nor is there one between E and F and this is important in how and why we name the intervals
So somewhere we have to do a studder step
Lets start with a C, from C to D is a Second, 2 half steps
From C to E  is a third, 4 half steps
From C to F is a forth, 5 half steps
From C to G is a fifth, 7 half steps
From C to A is a sixth, 9 half steps
From C to B is a seventh, 11 half steps
From C to C is an octave, 12 half steps

Now we call these intervals different things
Major Second, Major Third, Perfect Forth, Perfect Fifth, Major Sixth, Major Seventh
When we take a step out of a Major, it becomes a Minor
When we take a step out of a Perfect, it becomes a Diminished
When a Major or a Perfect is increased by a half step it is Augmented
When we take a step out of a Minor interval, it becomes Diminished
And to clear a bit up, when we take 2 steps out of a Major, it becomes Diminished

Those are our steps, as explained it is a major scale, however C to E is a Major Third
But D to F is a Minor Third, D to F# is a Major Third

 

[drewfx]

Another way of thinking of chords, is most chords are based on thirds stacked on top of each other:

Major 3rd with a minor 3rd on top of it = Major chord (triad); C-E-G = Cmaj
minor 3rd with a Major 3rd on top of it = minor chord (triad); C-Eb-G = Cmin
and
2 Major 3rd's = augmented; C-E-G# = Caug
2 minor 3rd's = diminished; C-Eb-Gb = Cdim

Adding another 3rd on top, will create a 7th chord in one form or another.
Ex.:
C-E-G (Cmaj) with a major 3rd added on top = Cmaj7 (C-E-G-B)
C-E-G (Cmaj) with a minor 3rd added on top = C7 (C-E-G-Bb)

I had intended to show how you can use this information, but unfortunately some other things came up yesterday.

You probably already know lots of triads; Note from above that:
Cmaj7 is really an Emin chord with a C on the bottom
C7  is an Edim chord with a C on the bottom
Cmin7 is an Ebmaj chord with a C on the bottom
So if you just play an Emin on guitar, and your bass player plays C, together you are playing Cmaj7.

Or consider the following:
Amaj7: A-C#-E-G# = Open A and C#min on top
A7: A-C#-E-G = Open A and C#dim on top
Amin7: A-C-E-G = Open A and Cmaj on top

Sorry for the ugly tab:
C#min  C#dim    Cmaj      C#min    C#dim    Cmaj    C#min  C#dim  Cmaj
-G#-4-----G---3-----G--3--  ----E--0-----E---0-----E--0--  ---C#-9----C#-9----C--8-
-E---5-----E---5-----E--5--  ----C#-2-----C#-2-----C--1--  ---G#-9----G--8----G--8-
-C#-6-----C#-6-----C--5--  ----G#-1-----G---0-----G--0--  ---E--9-----E--9----E--9-
-----X----------X---------X--  ---------X----------X--------X---  -------X--------X--------X-
-A---0-----A---0-----A--0--  ------A--0-----A---0-----A--0---  ---A--0-----A--0----A--0-
--------------------------------  -------------------------------------  -----------------------------
Amaj7    A7        Amin7      Amaj7    A7        Amin7    Amaj7    A7      Amin7


Using these, try the following chord changes, starting with common D chords:
-5--------4---  -5--------3---  -5--------3---  -2--------0---
-7--------5---  -7--------5---  -6--------5---  -3--------2---
-7--------6---  -7--------6---  -7--------5---  -2--------1---
-0--------X---  -0--------X---  -0-------X---  -0--------X---
-0--------0---  -0--------0---  -0--------0---  -0--------0---
-X------------  -X------------    -X------------    -X------------
Dmaj Amaj7  Dmaj  A7    Dmin Amin7  Dmaj Amaj7

And if you want to create similar chords based on open D or E strings:
Dmaj7: D-F#-A-C# = open D and F#min on top
D7: D-F#-A-C = D and F#dim on top
Dmin7: D-F-A-C = D and Fmaj on top

Emaj7: E-G#-B-D# = open E and G#min on top
E7: E-G#-B-D = E and G#dim on top
Emin7: E-G-B-D = E and Gmaj on top

 

[Jusatele]

Modes

First, these are not scales, they are forms of the major scale, but we do commonly call them scales, it is not really an issue unless you are a purist.
So we have seven and they are where on the major scale we start
• Ionian/Major Scale: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
• Dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D
• Phrygian: E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
• Lydian: F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F
• Mixolydian: G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G
• Aeolian/Natural minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
• Locrian: B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B
So if the intervals of a major scale are wwhwwwh starting on the first tone of the scale
Then the intervals of the Dorian are whwwwhw starting on the second tone
The Phrygian is hwwwhww third
Lydian is wwwhwwh 4th
Mixolydian is wwhwwhw 5th
Aeolian is whwwhww 6th
And finally the Locrian is hwwhwww 7th

The proper use and place for modes becomes apparent with more study of music and theory.

 

[Jusatele]

now the fun begins
those with the method book are flying through the last half and can read music, decide if they want to go on with the 2nd method book in the series, but after about 6 months they have a base that makes the study of theory really simple. And are not stuck to finding tabs, they can just read the music
the next step I would take would be going into chord theory,
the easiest way to do such is to learn the HARMONIZED SCALE
in doing so, we will start with first the Harmonized scale in the major triad, it will teach us how to build major and minor cords is the key we are in
Anyone can show you how to build a chord, but it is important to know how to build the chord to be diatonic to the key you are in.
All chord theory, such as chord substitution, major minor ot dominant 7th chords, neapolitan chords, the list goes on, assumes you know how to make use of the harmonized scale
here it is in the major triad, key of C

each chord staff there has a 1st, third, and 5th, of that chord, we will expand to 7ths later
now if you noticed, if you are learning to read music, how easy that is, just stack notes. if we look at the tablature, that makes no sense without an interval chart besides us
OK so notice they are not all major chords, we have minors, and diminished chords in there well that is because each chord in there has the same tones as the key it is in.
If we were to do that scale in G, the chords not only change in order, but in tones also, and because of the interval change, minor, major and diminished change
in a major key, all 1 4 5 chords are major, all 2 3 6 are minor and the 7 chord is a minor b5 (diminished)

chord substitution rules come later guys

 

[elfro89]

The CAGED system is a very easy concept and a great system for expanding on where chords you know are.

in order to perform this method you need to know these things:

A "C" shape chord such as open C
An "A" shape chord such as open A
A "G" shape chord chord such as open G
An "E" shape chord such as open E
A "D" shape chord such as open D

You must also recognise the shapes of barr chords. If you have no idea what an E shape bar is then this will probably confuse you.

An understanding of where notes are on the fretboard and knowledge of scales helps but is not necessary. Aslong as you can find your root note then this is a piece of piss.

ok so what is it? what use is this for learning the neck?
Simply put the caged system is a tool used for finding inversions of the same chord on the neck. Such as if we wanted to play the C chord in different places on the neck; the CAGED system tells us where the next closest shape is.

CAGED isn't just a word, it is a specific formula for knowing where the closest inversion is in relation to what shape you are on.
C in the word CAGED refers to the C Shape chord. and A to the A shape and so forth. This is a set order that cannot be changed. If you are on a G shape chord the the closest higher in pitch is the E Shaped chord and so on.

Here is an example of how it works.

You start by recognising what SHAPE you are using, for instance instead of playing open G play a G bar chord. Most of you will go to this shape:

G Major -
e----3----
B----3----
G----4---- 
D----5----
A----5----
E----3----

If you haven't guessed yet, this is an E shape chord. so we are on the E of the word CAGED. This means that if we want to find the next closest G major chord we move along 1 space in the formula. We were on E in cagEd, now we move to D. So the next G major is the D shape bar starting on the closest root of G from our previous chord:
G Major - D Shape
e----7----
B----8----
G----7----
D----5----
A----------
E----------

So we are now on the D of cageD moving along we start again on the C shape.
G Major - C Shape
e----7----
B----8----
G----7----
D----9----
A----10---
E----------

So we are now on the C of Caged, and you repeat this process right along the neck.

Obviously if you want to find the next chord lower in pitch you reverse the process.

Here is the CAGED system starting on the open C chord. If you can spot all the different shapes you will see that is Spells the word CAGED
the C Major chord.
e----0--------3--------8--------8--------12-----
B----1--------5--------5--------8--------13-----
G----0--------5--------5--------9--------12-----
D----2--------5--------5--------10-------10----
A----3--------3--------7--------10---------------
E-----------------------8---------8----------------
    C        A      G      E        D

This works for every chord anywhere. When it comes to chord extensions it becomes a little bit trickier. This is where a good knowledge of scales and how chords are constructed comes into play

Here is a CAGED method for the Cmaj7th chord. A good exercise is to try working one out for yourself.

C Major 7th
e----0--------3--------7--------8--------12-----
B----0--------5--------5--------8--------12-----
G----0--------4--------5--------9--------12-----
D----2--------5--------5--------9--------10-----
A----3--------3--------7--------10--------------
E-----------------------8---------8---------------
  C        A        G        E        D

 

[ptirman]

The CAGED system is a very easy concept and a great system for expanding on where chords you know are.

Cool. Some of this I did intuitively without knowing how to read music or any theory knowledge. I just ordered the uncaged DVD so I'll report back.
One confusing thing though:

G Major -
----3----
----3----
----4---- 
----5----
----5----
----3----

Is this standard notation? I'm used to seeing it upside down on tablature? In other words the low E is at the top of the chart versus this way? Am I stuck in a time warp or just plain wrong?

 

[elfro89]

The CAGED system is a very easy concept and a great system for expanding on where chords you know are.

Cool. Some of this I did intuitively without knowing how to read music or any theory knowledge. I just ordered the uncaged DVD so I'll report back.
One confusing thing though:

G Major -
----3----
----3----
----4---- 
----5----
----5----
----3----

Is this standard notation? I'm used to seeing it upside down on tablature? In other words the low E is at the top of the chart versus this way? Am I stuck in a time warp or just plain wrong?

in a totally non-agressive way!
Not everyone can read standard notation, and reading music is not necessary for understanding the caged system. You don't even need tab to learn the caged system. its about shapes and how they relate to each other. HOW you use it is entirely up the the individual. whether they use it as a map for improve or as a way of finding new chord shapes and mess around with.

re-check the original post and and it should hopefully be alot clearer.

 

[elfro89]

The CAGED system is a very easy concept and a great system for expanding on where chords you know are.

Cool. Some of this I did intuitively without knowing how to read music or any theory knowledge. I just ordered the uncaged DVD so I'll report back.
One confusing thing though:

G Major -
----3----
----3----
----4---- 
----5----
----5----
----3----

Is this standard notation? I'm used to seeing it upside down on tablature? In other words the low E is at the top of the chart versus this way? Am I stuck in a time warp or just plain wrong?

Not everyone can read standard notation, and reading music is not necessary for understanding the caged system. You don't even need tab to learn the caged system. its about shapes and how they relate to each other. HOW you use it is entirely up the the individual. whether they use it as a map for improve or as a way of finding new chord shapes and mess around with.

It doesnt take a whole lot of IQ to work out where the low E is IF you know your chord shapes, the only person that would get confused by the tab order is someone who is unfamiliar with these shapes, in which case learning the caged system would be a a step to far for that person, they are better off learning all the bar shapes first.

Your post was a bit offensive. I've been playing for 35 years and understand the rules you put forth. My question had to do with the notation. It was as you had it upside down to all of the bar charts, tab, everything I have seen. My question is merely, is this the new standard, that's all. I understand the concept of learning, prerequisite knowledge etc, been through post grad, grad school.

I apologise PT i did not mean to bash you in anyway. I will change the post to make it less agressive sounding. the problem with words is tone and all things can come across completely wrong. I did not intend it this way.

All i ment with what i said was that aslong as you recognise the chord shapes it shouldnt be a problem. i'll change my other post also to include which string is which and hopefully it should clarify things.

 

[ptirman]

No worries, carry on. I agree about coming across with posts or emails for that matter-I'm guilty as well. At this mid life stage after a nearly 20 year hiatus of playing guitar to pursue my career, I'm back into it and have a few goals in mind - record an album and learn some music theory to improve my playing. It's nice to have people willing to teach so I'll definitely soak it up.

 

[elfro89]

No worries, carry on. I agree about coming across with posts or emails for that matter-I'm guilty as well. At this mid life stage after a nearly 20 year hiatus of playing guitar to pursue my career, I'm back into it and have a few goals in mind - record an album and learn some music theory to improve my playing. It's nice to have people willing to teach so I'll definitely soak it up.

sure man I have very similar goals. Without hi-jacking this thread too much I'll say that learning theory relevant to your goals, is the best thing anyone can do. Goals I think, are the most important thing anyone can have. Theory is undoubtedly a subject that's hard not because of the rules and information surrounding it, but rather how we apply that information to our instruments is a skill each must learn in their own way. Everyone connects their own dots. This is why you'll find many knowledgeable people arguing about differing view points when they are really saying the same thing.

since none of this is relevant at all i'll shut up now.  :hello2: