DangerousR6
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 15,478
See, that's what I mean... :rock-on:Eric Banjitar said:
The data is in: the Wood Doesn't Matter
- Thread starter stubhead
- Start date
Paul-less said:
By that same logic I can ask why doesn't a tele look like a les paul if color doesn't matter?
They won't look the same even if you paint them both the same color. They won't sound the same even if you make them both out of the same type of wood.
Which has nothing to do with if the wood makes a difference. I'm just trying to figure out how the question makes any sense. Unless you believe that they WILL sound the same if made out of the same type of wood?
I guess I didn't really detail my example very well.
Given the same body woods, a les paul and a tele deluxe would sound MUCH more similar than they do as they are now. The scale length, neck construction, and bridge make a difference, but with similar woods they would have a more similar sound.
Poor example, I'll admit, but I hope you can all understand what I mean.
Given the same body woods, a les paul and a tele deluxe would sound MUCH more similar than they do as they are now. The scale length, neck construction, and bridge make a difference, but with similar woods they would have a more similar sound.
Poor example, I'll admit, but I hope you can all understand what I mean.
Jumble Jumble
Hero Member
- Messages
- 1,932
Is there any actual evidence for this though or is it just the "accepted wisdom"?Paul-less said:
Re agreeing to disagree. Personally I'd rather agree that we don't have anywhere near enough good-quality evidence, and so making strong assertions in either direction is unsupportable.
What seems goofily appalling to me is there is NO objective work being done, to generate a pool of knowledge that's trustworthy. The guitar magazines are totally sycophantic, because any sort of real "shootout" were ruin their advertising income. If they started actually saying Brand X is better than Brand Y, not only would Y transfer their ads to a magazine that never said anything bad about anything, but but Brand X would be forced to cancel their ads eventually too.
A) This magazine can't be trusted to run reviews that are just our rewritten press releases;
B) Brand Y is killing them on ads in that other magazine.
About 10 years ago Tone Pros came out with a locking bridge which they claimed at the time would increase sustain, make groupies rip off their clothes etc. A lot of Tone Pros customers did the obvious thing - unlocked it - and proved that the ads were lying (unless Tone Pros really hadn't ever tested their own bridge). So that claim quietly slunked off, but I just read a review a few months ago where the reviewer said something to the effect that "of course the legendary Tone Pros bridge dramatically increased sustain and tone!! Eeee, eee, eee". It has become a "fact" through repetition only.
You HAVE TO use the biggest string you can stand, because "you need big strings for big tone".
John McLaughlin .008's
Ritchie Blackmore .008's
Carlos Santana .010''s
Duane Allman .009's
Jim Hendrix tuned a 1/2 step down .009's
The latter bit is one of some dozen or so "hangovers" from acoustics. Like, the reason that SRV's and Rory Gallagher's sounded so great is because all the finish wore off, so the wood can breathe. So the new meme over at Harmony Central is that nitrocellulose is best, because it wear off quickest, and then your new guitar will sound good.
Ummm... how many times in a bleep about finishing guitars, that at various points you need to put on a sealer, so that this-or-that doesn't get absorbed into the guitar? You're building up layer after layers of a WATERPROOF BASE COAT....
HEY JOE -
WHERE YOU GOIN' WITH THAT CAN OF
GRAIN-FILLER IN YO HAND....
Grain filler, base coat, sealer, slurp this-or-that until it's PERFECTLY SMOOTH? Solly Chollie, the only way THAT guitar can "breathe" is through it's strap buttons. Now, don't get me wrong, why some of my best friends have nitro skin, I like smooth guitars and I like the looks of nitro. But if my guitar starts BREATHING on me, that guitar's goin' off a bridge and I'm going to the hootchie house for a nice long vacation.
(hey - did I post this in the right category?)
A) This magazine can't be trusted to run reviews that are just our rewritten press releases;
B) Brand Y is killing them on ads in that other magazine.
About 10 years ago Tone Pros came out with a locking bridge which they claimed at the time would increase sustain, make groupies rip off their clothes etc. A lot of Tone Pros customers did the obvious thing - unlocked it - and proved that the ads were lying (unless Tone Pros really hadn't ever tested their own bridge). So that claim quietly slunked off, but I just read a review a few months ago where the reviewer said something to the effect that "of course the legendary Tone Pros bridge dramatically increased sustain and tone!! Eeee, eee, eee". It has become a "fact" through repetition only.
You HAVE TO use the biggest string you can stand, because "you need big strings for big tone".
John McLaughlin .008's
Ritchie Blackmore .008's
Carlos Santana .010''s
Duane Allman .009's
Jim Hendrix tuned a 1/2 step down .009's
The latter bit is one of some dozen or so "hangovers" from acoustics. Like, the reason that SRV's and Rory Gallagher's sounded so great is because all the finish wore off, so the wood can breathe. So the new meme over at Harmony Central is that nitrocellulose is best, because it wear off quickest, and then your new guitar will sound good.
Ummm... how many times in a bleep about finishing guitars, that at various points you need to put on a sealer, so that this-or-that doesn't get absorbed into the guitar? You're building up layer after layers of a WATERPROOF BASE COAT....
HEY JOE -
WHERE YOU GOIN' WITH THAT CAN OF
GRAIN-FILLER IN YO HAND....
(hey - did I post this in the right category?)
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
Hehe! Too much fun.
Incidentally, you can add Billy Gibbons and his .008's to the list.
If only he'd use heavier strings, perhaps ZZ Top might have a richer. ballsier sound...</sarcasm>
I'm goin' down to shoot me some nitro
Gonna fix my gitar... just like I planned
So I shot it! I give it the gun!
Gonna fix my gitar... just like I planned
So I shot it! I give it the gun!
Incidentally, you can add Billy Gibbons and his .008's to the list.
If only he'd use heavier strings, perhaps ZZ Top might have a richer. ballsier sound...</sarcasm>
drewfx
Hero Member
- Messages
- 1,204
StubHead said:
One of the big problems is that even if you do very careful objective work with every possible control and precise, reproducible quantitative measurements with the results confirmed by careful ABX or double blind testing (DBT)...
...people who didn't like the results would just reject them outright anyway.
People who are "true believers" are almost universally unwilling to do any kind of controlled testing or ABX/DBT listening tests, even when it's fairly easy to do so. Instead they just reject any and all contrary evidence, no matter how good it is, and repeat what they "know" over and over with increasing volume. And there tend to be enough of these people to reinforce each others beliefs and sway others who don't have much faith in science (or lack the ability to sort out the good science from the shoddy science and pseudoscience).
To make things worse, many sources you'd like to provide some clarity simply lack the technical expertise to determine the facts. For technical subjects, it's generally the case that manufacturers have much more specific technical expertise than magazine writers, for instance. Sometimes writers lack the technical background to even know which claims might be questionable and should be checked, or where to find an independent authority if they wanted to check them.
Cagey
Mythical Status
- Messages
- 24,425
drewfx said:
Right you are, and its cause is the same thing that forms the basic tripping point with religion and politics. You might want to read some of the works of Michael Shermer, or the latest from Jonathon Haidt's "The Righteous Mind". They address different issues, but the root of them is the same as what causes the rift in many dogmatic belief systems. You see it all the time with artists and consumers of their output, be it artistic, sociological, or technical. Really very interesting stuff, and well worth the price of entry and the time to digest.
Strat Avenger
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,537
I read that Billy Gibbons plays (or played) 007s. :dontknow:
I also wanna agree with the post which stated that guitars made of the same species of wood can sound different.
My Warmoth, made of Alder body, maple/rosewood neck, & OFR bridge sounds noticeably different (actually somewhat better) than another one of my guitars made of the same body & neck woods and equipped with an OFR bridge. Both guitars have the same brand & model of pickups.
The wood has to have an effect, but perhaps not so much the species, as the individual tree it came from.
I also wanna agree with the post which stated that guitars made of the same species of wood can sound different.
My Warmoth, made of Alder body, maple/rosewood neck, & OFR bridge sounds noticeably different (actually somewhat better) than another one of my guitars made of the same body & neck woods and equipped with an OFR bridge. Both guitars have the same brand & model of pickups.
The wood has to have an effect, but perhaps not so much the species, as the individual tree it came from.
greywolf said:
I have experienced exactly the opposite!
and at this point I don't care! I like "TONE" to remain one big unpredictable mystery!
sometimes a certain combination of woods/hardware/pickups sound crap and sometimes they turn out to be (close) to the holy grail of Tones!! that is half of the fun of putting together a Warmoth!
Patrick from Davis
Hero Member
- Messages
- 2,197
The guitar with the flame has more black hardware on it, huge difference in tone right there.
Patrick
Patrick
Yep - just think of how different music started sounding when the black hardware came out. Without that edge, people probably wouldn't have been able to invent Nu-metal! In general, I had thought that the Suhr site had some pretty logical ideas about wood - none of the "magical thinking" AKA dumbass. But - no doubt bowing to tremendous pressure, he did say something to the effect that "all else being equal, a telecaster sounds chunkier than a stratocaster." :sad1: :sad: :icon_scratch:
A-OK! I have, ummm, a few guitar slides and steel guitar bars, and in quite a long time in playing, I have come to the conclusion that weight is about the only thing that changes the tone. OF COURSE if it's scratchy, or some material that's too soft that will make a difference. But it's written in stone that glass is "smoother" and brass is heavier and steel is brighter. But the ex-spurts have assigned these judgements to a 3 oz brass that is caked with tarnish, a Dunlop glass test tube slide, and the ridiculous thin little chrome-plate steel slides like music stores sell. They haven't had the luxury of owning a 5 oz brass slide, a 5 oz steel slide, a 5 oz glass slide, AND a 2 oz steel slide, a 2 oz brass slide, and a 2 oz glass slide.
All this is a long way toward saying I think overall weight, it's distribution and solidity of connection to the bridge is maybe the only difference that matters in a guitar made of boards. If you made a walnut body thin enough to weigh exactly 4 pounds, and a 4 pound alder body and a 4 pound koa body and a spruce body fat enough to weigh 4 pounds, I think they would sound the same. This is not in agreement with the authorities...
A-OK! I have, ummm, a few guitar slides and steel guitar bars, and in quite a long time in playing, I have come to the conclusion that weight is about the only thing that changes the tone. OF COURSE if it's scratchy, or some material that's too soft that will make a difference. But it's written in stone that glass is "smoother" and brass is heavier and steel is brighter. But the ex-spurts have assigned these judgements to a 3 oz brass that is caked with tarnish, a Dunlop glass test tube slide, and the ridiculous thin little chrome-plate steel slides like music stores sell. They haven't had the luxury of owning a 5 oz brass slide, a 5 oz steel slide, a 5 oz glass slide, AND a 2 oz steel slide, a 2 oz brass slide, and a 2 oz glass slide.
All this is a long way toward saying I think overall weight, it's distribution and solidity of connection to the bridge is maybe the only difference that matters in a guitar made of boards. If you made a walnut body thin enough to weigh exactly 4 pounds, and a 4 pound alder body and a 4 pound koa body and a spruce body fat enough to weigh 4 pounds, I think they would sound the same. This is not in agreement with the authorities...
