tell me if this is a good idea

[loversmoon]

So, in the end I wasnt happy with the color of the cabronita I was working on. So, I stripped the paint off of it and I am starting over. The plan this time is to dye it  with Transtint Red Mahogany. I have never worked with dyes before so Im reading up on everything I can find. My plan of attack is this:

1) wet the grain several times and sand back to remove any whiskers that raise up
2) stain the body to my desired color (by hand not thru a sprayer)
3) use zinsser's sand and seal shellac in an aersol can to lock down the dye
4) use tru oil as the final finish

Now, what I am hoping for is that the sand and seal shellac will lock the color down and protect it from too much change when putting on the tru oil. I know that tru oil has a slight tint to it and can change the colors.

Is this a good plan of attack? should I change anything?  Would it be best to mix the dye with alcohol or water? My initial plan was to mix it with alcohol so that it would keep the grain from raising anymore. All help is appreciated.

 

[bagman67]

The one thing I would do in your entire schedule is to put this in front of any prep work you plan to do the guitar:


Apply the whole schedule to a piece of scrap wood of the same species, and hopefully in the same color range as your guitar body.


This will allow you to refine your technique and find out where the goblins lurk.


Good luck!


Bagman

 

[loversmoon]

Thanks Bagman, but where would I get my hands on a piece of Alder?? Would pine come close ?

 

[bagman67]

Where are you located?  There should be some kind of specialty woodworking shops or local woodworkers' club in any decent sized town.  Look for a Rockler or Woodcraft outlet in your area, and also look for furniture manufacturers - alder is commonly used in that context.
Also, if you're looking for a uniform tint to the wood, alder is sometimes not that friendly to stain, so consider using a toner - a tinted lacquer or poly coat - that you can build up to the desired color depth, rather than staining.  You would start with your shellac sealer, and then spray the toner.  Rattlecans of various colors of Behlen toners are available at  a reasonable price from http://www.shellac.net .  The website may look like it came out of 1996, but they respond rapidly to inquiries and ship fast.

Bagman

 

[loversmoon]

I am in eastern ky in a small town. I have a lowes nearby but not sure if they sell alder or not. I dont know of any wood speciality shops in my area. There may be a hobby shop about an hour from me but I doubt they have alder either. Im trying to get away from lacquer. I hate the smell of it and I know alder is not so great to stain. I dont mind if it comes out a bit funky. Just adds mojo.

 

[Great Ape]

Two things; first, you do not need to wet & sand prior to dying--mixing the dye with water will raise the grain when applied, then you can sand and add more dye as desired. Second, and most important--alder does NOT like trans-tint. Tends to look uneven, blotchy, and not the color you intended--BEWARE!

 

[Cagey]

Uneven or blotchy stain results are often due to applying stain to the raw wood. You need to seal it first with a wash coat (a diluted layer of your eventual finish) or a sealer. Then stain, then finish.

 

[loversmoon]

So hit it with the shellac sand and sealer first, let dry, then stain? I dont have a spray system yet and i wasnt thrilled with the preval sprayers

 

[Cagey]

Right.

I wasn't impressed with the Preval units, either, but I understand some people get good results from them. I suspect they only work well with very low-viscosity materials with minimal pressure/flow requirements. In other words, no on sanding sealers, urethanes, etc., but yes on thin stuff like wash coats and lacquers.

 

[loversmoon]

thanks Cagey. The preval has this small circular spray to it that I found hard to get a nice even flow from. I much preferred spray cans to the preval sprayer. I will at some point get myself set up with a proper spray rig.

 

[Cagey]

If you do decide to gear up to paint, you may want to consider one of the Earlex HVLP units. I use this one, and get great results. If you're not familiar with HVLP spray rigs, it's a somewhat different way to shoot coatings. Instead of using a high air pressure to atomize and move the paint, it uses a high volume of air. So, there's no compressor, per se. It's basically a turbine. It only develops about 4psi, but it'll move 42cfm of air. Oddly enough, for blasting so much air, you end up with a lot less overspray and waste.

Anyway, it's small, light, inexpensive ($300) and returns professional results. That's roughly the cost of a single paint job, so you get you money back quick. You're ahead of the game halfway through your second body.

If there's any criticism of the thing that I could offer, it's that you're stuck with the gun it comes with. There doesn't appear to be a gravity feed aftermarket unit available. Not that it's a bad gun; far from it. But, if you want to shoot sunbursts, that vacuum feed paint cup can get in the way while a gravity feed cup won't.

 

[loversmoon]

yes, I would have to agree that gravity feed is the way I want to go. Ive researched some but not much. Thanks for the tips. I assume I need to mix my transtint with water as the alcohol/thinner 50/50 would just melt thru the shellac and make a mess. Im off to the hardware store today to pick up my supplies. Im hoping the transtint arrives this week sometime. I plan to finish this off with some tru oil. Approximately how much would one body need to give it a nice protective coat? I have say 3/4 of a bottle left over from my last project. (3oz bottle)

Ive considered just mixing the transtint in with some clear shellac and doing it that way but I have read that can cause streaking? I used amber shellac by hand on the last build and it came out nice.

 

[Cagey]

Shellac doesn't like water, either. It's actually a pretty fragile coating. It's good for display pieces, but not things that are going to see much use. On guitars, it's sometimes used as a barrier coat to change finish chemistries, like if you want to shoot lacquer over poly, or something like that. I don't know how you keep it from dissolving in that kind of scenario, as anything that doesn't like water or alcohol is probably not going to fare well in the face of acetone. But, I haven't tried it so it's likely there's something I don't understand. For example, you can shoot a 50/50 mix of lacquer/acetone over cured lacquer easily, but it you shoot pure acetone at it you'll strip the finish off immediately. I mean, it's eerie how fast it happens. It's like watching some kind of time-lapse sci-fi monster transformation.

 

[loversmoon]

the way I did it last time was basically put the shellac on then put nitro over it. didnt seem to have much issues. I have also used shellac on a neck to tint it then put tru oil over it. I have never really worked with acetone before so thats a beast I know nothing about. I just started getting into doing finishes and stuff. Im learning as I go.

 

[bagman67]

Putting lacquer over shellac is a time-tested approach.  That amber Telecaster you did is very nice.  I like it.


Acetone is the primary ingredient in lacquer thinners, and the main solvent in lacquer itself.  It's also the component that makes it smell the way it does.  YOu've been working with it, you appear just to have not known that's what the chemical is called.  Now you know.


Bagman

 

[loversmoon]

ahhh. as I said....learning as I go. I appreciate all the info and tips that you guys have been giving me. Thanks on the tele comment. That was my first official finish. I brushed the lacquer on that one. First and last time doing that. wiping the shellac on wasnt all that bad.

 

[leo12.]

Here's a link http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=15729.0
This is done on Alder, Anything you put on to seal the wood will prevent stain from
penetrating the wood. Don't wet wood to sand fibres. Run through the paper grades to
320 grit dust down (with air if poss) wipe with denatured alcohol / meths, let dry stain
till the desired look, light sand & if tru oil is your finish go tru oil after stain all the way skip lacquer coats no spray gear necessary. I never used tru oil so you will have to check that out.
I think Poplar would be a wood similar to Alder to experiment on, doesn't require filling it
can be greenish streaked though. Good luck.

 

[loversmoon]

Thanks leo!!

 

[Scuffcakes]

I'll add another vote for seal then stain.  Get the Behlen vinyl sealer in an aerosol can.  Sand it flat if necessary then stain.  Your color will come out nice and even, no blotchy patches.

 

[loversmoon]

I have the Zinsser's clear shellac for a sealer. I like it alot. Used it on the last build and it sands nice and smooth. Im gonna practice on a piece of scrap. One with no sealer one with sealer and see how it turns out. Ill keep everyone posted.