Technique

[Xplorervoodoo]

Hey guys.  I first picked up the guitar when I was 19, and now, at 32, I feel I really haven't progressed far with it at all.

I've tried a few different approaches, from learning new chords to mechanical scale practice, but nothing seems to be sticking.  And my theory knowledge is slim to none, despite the information I've read, both in books and on the glorious interweb.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel stuck.  Does it REALLY come down to just playing things over and over until your muscles take over for you?  Or is there something more to learning this stuff?

Are there any tips you guys could offer me that could help me retain the things I want to learn, or is it just one big memory game?

I've always aspired to be a solid rhythm player, and never really had much of an ambition for soloing, but lately I feel I'm missing out on a big part of guitar playing because of it.  However, I find it difficult to learn and retain (and practice, nowadays, with a 10 month old daughter taking up most of my time) anything that inspires me, like Buck Dharma's soloing and melody lines, and Devin Townsend's chording...

Can you offer any help for someone as thick as I seem to be?  :laughing7:

 

[Nightclub Dwight]

I feel your pain!  I played guitar as a child and into my early twenties then quit for nearly 20 years before going back to the instrument a few years ago.  That puts me in my early to mid 40's and its been a little bit frustrating because sometimes I feel that I'm not even as good as I was when I was a teenage.  I sometimes think music is like a language in that it is easiest to learn as a child, but that may also be because I had more time to spend on it back when I was a kid.

One think that has helped me progress has been playing with other people.  It was a little intimidating at first because I didn't feel ready to play with others, but I think that feeling is what motivates me to practice and get better.  Me and a few friends have tried to schedule a once-a-week "band" practice even though we're not really a band by any means of the imagination.  Just knowing I'm going to be playing with them gets me practicing and thinking about music, and every little bit helps.  Also, the camaraderie of playing with other people sometimes creates epiphanies where someone will show me a little something and I suddenly realize how a certain song is played that I wouldn't have figured out on my own.

Another option might be lessons.  As an adult you can find all sorts of different approaches to teaching, and perhaps just scheduling a "jam session" once a week with an instructor can move you off the plateau.

Good luck, and take comfort in the knowledge that there are other people out there who feel the same frustration.  One thing I can say for sure is that I didn't progress at all during those 20 years I didn't play, but now that I am playing again, even though it feels as slow as molasses, I do feel that I am moving forward in my playing again.  So just keep at it!

 

[Xplorervoodoo]

Thanks for the sympathy it's at least nice to know I'm not the only one.

Good tips too.  I've definitely been lacking in the "playing with other people" department, as I don't have any friends who play, and I really don't feel confident enough to seek out strangers to jam with.

Would love to take lessons, but they're so expensive!  I've considered that for years, but kept spending my money on other things as I just couldn't justify that kind of expense...  But maybe I should re-think that.

Thanks again.  :icon_thumright:

 

[swarfrat]

I'd actually been considering a similar topic, namely - how do you find an instructor at mid level playing. It seems like 90%+ of the guys that are easiest to find when looking for instructors are OK for rank beginners, but for someone who knows which end of the guitar to hold, it's a little frustrating. Not that I'm opposed to practicing fundamentals, but I feel like most of the guys aren't really well suited for going much beyond that, and into higher level goals like getting unstuck or exploring some new area (like: I'd like to become more adept at incorporating motion into rhythm guitar parts - a la Jungle Love... or I know that the chord progressions are simple, but I want to figure out how to make my rhythm playing more aggressively punctuated.")

I think, if I tried, I might could eventually find my way through word of mouth, checkbook, and probably a moving truck, to some famous teacher with a waiting list who I'd need to audition for a spot in his schedule. But that's not really what I'm after either.

 

[Cagey]

The whole "play with other people" thing is huge. It's a major motivator, which is what most people need whether they'll admit it or not. I mean, face it: playing an instrument is nothing more than stroking your inner exhibitionist that's crying out for recognition. If nobody's listening or has any expectations, you have no reason to practice. And if you don't practice - a lot - you'll never gain the skills you need to do that. You can tell yourself whatever gets you through the night, but really, if nobody else is impressed you'll give up very early on, or just practice crap that doesn't move you forward. You need a driver, and an audience is it, even if it's just your girlfriend/spouse/buddy/etc. And trust me on this one - those people are usually the last ones on the list you want to try to impress. You need to impress strangers. They're the only honest audience you'll ever get.

But, practicing 3 hours a day won't do it, either. You need to practice the right things. For that, you need somebody who's had formal training. Don't look for someone who makes Eddie VanHalen or Angus Young look sick, look for someone who knows what those guys are doing but chooses to ignore it. You want somebody who'll teach you about intervals and the cycle of fifths and chord construction and things of that nature. You really want to learn more about music than guitar. The guitar is just an instrument, and there are hundreds of instruments. So, you want a musician who specializes in guitar more than a guitar player who knows a lot of songs and technique.

 

[AutoBat]

I taught myself, and although I'm glad to have done it, I probably could have benefited from lessons.  I'm a bit beyond that, yet behind at the same time.  I don't know the names of the chords, or half the strings most of the time, but I can still learn songs quite well and have figured out how to do some sort of scale playing.
For several years it seemed that I didn't learn anything new, then I started learning solos to my favorite songs, then the middle bits. Now I can play a good portion of Van Halen songs, which is something I previously deemed impossible.

 

[swarfrat]

What do Neil Young and Prince have in common?

Not much, but they both have the business/show thing down. Neil teaches us that you can be a successful performer even if cursed with a whiney voice and that you only need to be able to bang out basic chords if you can do it on tempo.  Prince teaches us that even if you are endowed with phenomenal guitar skills, you don't need to let it interfere with the business part of making music.

 

[Xplorervoodoo]

Thanks guys, you've all given me a lot to think about.  :icon_thumright:

 

[mayfly]

Form a band.  Get people that are better than you in it. That will get you to the first level. Then book a gig. That will get you to the next. Then get a gig opening for someone you really respect. That will get you further. Then write some songs and work them up with the band. Then record them. Then release a record.


Once you've done all that you won't think you're still in a rut.

 

[TBurst Std]

Going to repeat a lot said here:

not in order priority

get a teacher
play with others
play live
record yourself

A teacher will educate you as well as keep you focused.
Playing with others will teach you the whole concept of orchestration.
Playing live will teach you how to make what you hear in your head a true deliverable.
Recording live will teach you how to be appropriately critical of yourself.

 

[TBurst Std]

What do Neil Young and Prince have in common?

Not much, but they both have the business/show thing down. Neil teaches us that you can be a successful performer even if cursed with a whiney voice and that you only need to be able to bang out basic chords if you can do it on tempo.  Prince teaches us that even if you are endowed with phenomenal guitar skills, you don't need to let it interfere with the business part of making music.

This should be stickied!

 

[hannaugh]

Playing with other people is the ideal situation to have, but...

The hard part - how do you get all these other players to actually show up?  Cause I'd say I've got about a 30% success rate getting other musicians to not cancel, no matter what their level of playing is or how enthusiastic they seem about jamming.  It might be more of a So Cal problem, but getting musicians to get their sh*t together and show up around these parts is like herding cats.  I usually end up just getting frustrated and playing by myself disappointedly. 

Finding a good teacher is hard too.  I've had 3 teachers in my day that were all great players and absolutely suck-tacular at teaching.   

 

[Cagey]

It's not a SoCal problem. It's almost universal among musicians. They're about the flakiest people you'll ever meet. Add to that the fact that playing is usually a pretty low priority activity relative to work, family, partying, maintaining a household, etc. and it's a wonder any music ever gets made.

Good teachers are tough to find, too. But, I've never met up with one yet that locked you into some kind of term or agreement beyond "Show up, pay me, and I'll give you a half an hour". So, you have to search and sample around. Give somebody a couple/few weeks and if they don't measure up, move on. Keep in mind the teachers have the same problem as mentioned above: musicians and wannabes are often pretty flaky. If you don't show up reliably, or don't practice what you're being taught, they get apathetic pretty fast.

 

[Xplorervoodoo]

Yeah I've always felt better doing things on my own, but I just feel that looking things up in books or on the net just isn't sticking for whatever reason.

I guess I just have to force some stuff.  I'm just not used to memorizing anything for longer than a test  :laughing7: maybe that's why I'm finding it hard to retain.

 

[hannaugh]

That's exactly why I now give my students the same exact test 4 times in the first two years of my makeup classes and make them write out the correct answers to the ones they got wrong each time.  It teaches them to learn the info so they know it, not so they can pretend they know it for a day while they take one test.  They gripe about it, but they know their stuff when they get to the advanced class. 

 

[swarfrat]

Thanks Trevor for the nudge in favor of lab vs lecture. I've actually been wanting to pick your brain on the general topic of 'how do you learn all the not-fun things required to get a band headed somewhere' for a while.

Priorities dictate against actual band right now though (since I became a daddy a few days ago. Major hijack but heck,  I don't care - that's my BOY!), but I think I will bump what time I do have(ha ha ha ha ha ha)  can steal towards recording projects at least. A take only lasts 3-5 minutes after all right? At least that's task/goal oriented, which is ONE of the  underlying principles of the band thing. It doesn't really address the unflinching audience aspect though, unless you're also putting it out somewhere.

 

[bagman67]

I became a daddy a few days ago.

Congratulations, Papa!

 

[Cagey]

Propagating the species is always a Good Thing <grin>

 

[drewfx]

Congrats on the new addition!



For the OP, it's absolutely vital that you start with good and proper basic technique. Bad habits established early make everything more difficult later on.

Something else to keep in mind is that learning anything doesn't always progress gradually; sometimes it seems more revelatory, where all of a sudden things just click but it's really based on the accumulation of learning over time.

And one thing I'm quite certain of is that if you practice, over time you will get better.

I used to divide my practice time between 4 categories and found it helpful:

1. Basic technique - stuff like finger exercises, running scales, position changes, etc.
2. Working on learning and mastering songs or pieces of music.
3. Theory - this may be on the instrument or conceptually.
4. Just playing. It could be improvising alone, playing along with the radio or recorded music or whatever. But the focus is on just playing without any specific goals for this part.

 

[swarfrat]

For much of the past year, I've spent much of my playing time working out chord melody in diads - from memory. Mostly hymns, partly because I was fascinated with the idea of how to inject electric guitar into 17th - 19th century harmonizations, and partly because it makes up a lot of deepest grooves in my brain from childhood.

I've learned a lot from the voicing experiment, but I think the 'learning from memory' aspect has been really helpful as well, in terms of being able to get ideas in my head to my fingers in real time without a layover at the frontal cortex. I'm getting much much better at recalling some forgotten song, and being able to not only play melody, but harmonize the melody as it comes to me without having to stop and go 'ok, we're in G, the melody is on B, and there's a pedal droning D that is getting ready to resolve and needs to be incorporated".

It's not the end all be-all of ear training, but I think it helps with certain tasks in ways that transcribing doesn't. (And vice versa - transcription helps with greasing the pathways from 'new stuff which hasn't yet worn a grove so deep the needle can't possibly skip out of the groove' to 'stuff I know how to actualize')