Swamp ash w/red or amber grain filler and natural finish

[WindsurfMaui]

I have always admired a natural finished swamp ash Strat that shows all the grain pattern. But everyone owns a natural color Swamp ash Strat so I would like to do something different. Instead of a black or brown grain filler to highlight the pattern I am considering trying a red or amber grain filler and then leaving the rest of the body natural color and then using an oil finish that doesn't darken the natural wood look.

So has anyone done a red or amber grain filler on a swamp ash body? Can you get the red to really pop dramatically? Is amber to light a color to make the grain stand out? If the red works I plan to match it with a red pearloid pickguard, if amber can stand out then a tortoise shell pickguard.

Which oil can I use to then coat the whole guitar body that won't darken the natural look of the swamp ash or dull the grain filler color? I would like to keep the wood uncovered by lacquer or do you think it needs to be lacquered to keep the natural color of the ash from darkening over time?

If anyone has done this lready and has pictures I would love to see them. Thanks

 

[bagman67]

So, you have a lot to address here.


FIrstly, yes, you can take neutral-colored grain filler and tint it to suit.  I have had good luck with neutral Timbermate water-based grain filler tinted with Mixol universal pigments.  The Mixol pigments will also work with oil-based fillers like Behlen and Jasco.  The thing to keep in mind is that you'll likely need to do more than one pass - indeed, probably three, maybe more - to ensure uniform and complete filling over the entire body.  Accordingly, you'll need to tint enough filling compound to do the job multiple times so that you don't wind up with different shades of your color.  Matching is hard.  Matching tiny pores filled with color is likely to be even harder.  Might as well solve it in the first instance.  NB:  I have never tried to tint clear water-based grain fillers such as Crystalac and Aqua Coat.  I have no idea how well or poorly that would work.


Second, whatever you tint the grain filler with is likely to also want to color the ash lumber.  So you'll need to seal with shellac or lacquer or whatever your sealant of choice is BEFORE you apply the grain filler to keep from streaking color where you don't want it.


Third, if you don't want to darken the wood much, but don't want to spray lacquer (which is admittedly a giant pain in the fundament), it sounds like a wipe-on poly product would be appropriate for your use.  They are water-clear to start with and don't darken much over time.  They are also brain-dead easy to apply, but they take time to build a film.  This is actually an advantage - if you like a very thin finish, you don't have to sand it down.  But if you want a mirror-sheen gloss finish, you'll be applying wipe-on coats for a loooong time, and then you'll need to wet-sand and buff to get it there.  But a matte or semi-gloss finish is fine right out of the can.


Fourth:  You DO want a clear barrier coat between your guitar and the universe that seeks to do it harm.  A poly coat will protect against moisture, skin oils, beer splashes, hooker dust, and whatever other evils your environment may contain.


Finally:  Go to your local hardwood supplier or go online and get a piece of ash to practice your finishing schedule on.  I am fond of getting a 1x3 board a couple feet long and masking off portions and numbering them so I can track various experiments in parallel and compare results.  You do NOT want to inflict an  exotic and untried finishing schedule on a brand new, $175-plus top-shelf part.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Thanks again Bagman67. Before I follow up with some questions I need to do more research and watch more videos. I have seen a couple of videos where they mix tint with aqua coat and then after multiple coats and sanding coat the whole body with an oil like tru oil, or something, so the body has a natural unsealed finish. That was my original hope but again after more research I may decide on a wipe on poly.

Yes I agree I was hoping to get some scraps from a local lumber yard and do my experimenting on them both to get use to the process and to experiment with color shades. I would like a very bold strong red highlight in the grain to really contrast with the natural ash color but I don't know if that is possible. My other concern is how much sanding has to be done to get the non grain sections back to a natural shade without changing the shape of the guitar body.. If I have to do the grain filler 3 or 4 times to get the bold color I am looking for I would think I would end up taking quite a bit of wood off the body with all the sanding.

 

[bagman67]

Well, if you seal the body before you fill the grain, and then apply the filler per instructions, you won't actually be taking off much wood, if any.  You'll just be knocking down the very few areas where you didn't scrape the extra filler off the body when applying it, and then smoothing the overall surface of the body.  So I wouldn't worry much about that.  As long as you sand with nothing coarser than180-220 grit, you'll be fine.  That will allow you to knock down what you need to without grinding wood off he body.

Tru-oil is great - it's easy to use and easy to repair.  But it goes on with a very faint yellowish cast, and it darkens to a moderate amber color before too long - within the first year or so, depending on how much light you expose it to - and it's more fragile than a wipe-on poly.  I've had great luck with it, but it's not water-clear. Just so you know going in.  But once you apply a finish, I'm not sure what you mean by "unsealed."  Are you after a matte or semi-gloss look?  Because that can be achieved with Tru-oil by applying per instructions and then dulling it with steel wool or a scotchbrite pad.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Tru-oil is great - it's easy to use and easy to repair.  But it goes on with a very faint yellowish cast, and it darkens to a moderate amber color before too long - within the first year or so, depending on how much light you expose it to - and it's more fragile than a wipe-on poly.  I've had great luck with it, but it's not water-clear. Just so you know going in.  But once you apply a finish, I'm not sure what you mean by "unsealed."  Are you after a matte or semi-gloss look?  Because that can be achieved with Tru-oil by applying per instructions and then dulling it with steel wool or a scotchbrite pad.

I'm still not totally clear with the terminology. I believe certain final finishes encase the body in a impenetrable coating like urethane. This is what I'm trying to avoid. Although in the end it may be an unavoidable  option. I'm trying to do the final coat as an natural oil that will give the guitar room to still breath.

The obvious conflicts that I have to experiment with are first I want the grain filled color to be vibraint which may mean oil based rather than water based color. Something I prefer not to use just because I don't have a workshop. This will be a kitchen project and I don't want to fill the apartment with the odor. Second, the finish needs to leave the uncolored wood to remain natural and not become tinted over time as the oil ages. I guess this would then mean a clear coat urethane unless I can find a more natural finish that stays clear over time.

I bought a small piece of ash wood cut into small squares which I can experiment with dyes and grain filler to see what I can achieve. Hopefully it won't take too long.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Let me ask a separate question. Is there any reason I can't order an unfinished ash body and assemble the guitar and use it for a couple of months while I am experimenting with finishes on the sample wood. I assume whatever dings or dirt that gets accumulated will come off with sanding when I'm ready to apply a finish.

I have two questions. One, when I do finally apply a finish will the finish getting into the screw holes for the pickguard etc cause a problem? that is will I have to pilot drill the holes again to clean them out to use them when reassembling the guitar? Second, I assume I will have to shield the body with either liquid shielding paint or copper tape when the body is being used prefinish. So when I do finish the body will either the liquid shield or copper tape be negatively effected by the finish? I think i'd like to play the unfinished guitar for a couple of months just to see what it feels and sounds like.

 

[Cagey]

Raw swamp Ash is a pretty open-grained wood, so you really don't want to handle it much, if at all, before finishing. All those nooks and crannies will fill with all sorts of contaminants that will almost certainly preclude a good finish because you can't access all those voids to clean them.

Getting finish and whatnot into screw holes or cavities isn't much of a problem, what you want to avoid is water.

Shielding cavities is wildly overrated. It doesn't hurt anything, but it also doesn't do much. What you want is shielded cable. Much more effective and easier to do. Although, if you're using single-coil pickups, there's not much you can do to knock them back, noise-wise. They're inherently noisy, so learn to love it or buy a good gate.

If you want to play with a swamp Ash body until you find the finishing schedule that gives you the best results on a high-end piece, just buy one of those pacific rim bodies for $50-$60. The XGP series from Guitar Fetish are dimensionally correct, so moving parts from one carcass to another won't present any insurmountable problems.

 

[mayfly]

As Cagey indicated, If you do this, you will end up with a dirty guitar that won't hold paint.  If you really really want to play it while you work on finishing, you need to give it a finish of some kind.  Otherwise it will be dirty forever.

I actually did this with a friends bass guitar body.  Covered it in Zinsser's Seal Coat (high quality shellac) first while she worked on the paint design.

For a while it looked like this:

After a year or so, it suddenly looked like this:

The paint has held up very well since.  'Course, she doesn't treat the thing badly...

 

[stratamania]

Just in case it was not said earlier, the wood used on a guitar cannot actually breathe.

Having a thinner more natural looking finish is not a bad goal in itself that said.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

Shielding cavities is wildly overrated. It doesn't hurt anything, but it also doesn't do much. What you want is shielded cable. Much more effective and easier to do. Although, if you're using single-coil pickups, there's not much you can do to knock them back, noise-wise. They're inherently noisy, so learn to love it or buy a good gate.

If you want to play with a swamp Ash body until you find the finishing schedule that gives you the best results on a high-end piece, just buy one of those pacific rim bodies for $50-$60. The XGP series from Guitar Fetish are dimensionally correct, so moving parts from one carcass to another won't present any insurmountable problems.

First, thanks for the heads up. I certainly don't want to do anything to a nice Warmoth Ash Strat that will damage the ultimate finish plans I have. So I won't be assembling an unfinished Warmoth body.

Second, please tell me more about Guitarfetish products. They are currently out of the unfinished ash Strat with a trem system so I am on there waiting list.  Please give me the good and bad on their products. Are they quality stuff in that I mean not that they are the same quality as the Warmoth products but can I fit a Warmoth neck to their bodies without having to make lots of adjustments? Are the bodies mainly seconds? They seem to have unsightly knots on their face. Or are they made of more then 2 or 3 pieces in their bodies.  At $69.00 maybe I will try the finishing process on one of their bodies first but I would hate to waste $69 on an experiment. Even with their direct shipping they can't be producing the same quality as Warmoth for $69.00. Thanks for the lead. I'm kind of surprised I never heard of them before

 

[Cagey]

Guitar Fetish has different levels of quality on their bodies and necks. Some of them are literally unfinished, by which I mean they bought them surplus from one of the high-volume builders over there and they're at various levels of completion as far as cavities, holes, etc.. Some of those may actually have (poly) finish on them, while others don't. They're "project" parts, meaning you'll generally have some real work to do before they're useful. That stuff they practically give away, so if you need a practice piece to hone your routing/drilling/finishing skills on, there you go.

Up from there, they have completed bodies/necks that are "knockoff" parts, for lack of a better term. They're ready to use, but they don't comply with many standards so you don't know if necks/hardware are going to install without a fight. Usually it's a matter of metric vs. imperial, but other times I don't know what they're thinking. Neck pockets will be off, cavities will be irregular, etc. On the plus side, they're cheap enough to be disposable so if you wanna build a beater that actually plays so you can throw around/smash/set fire to it during a stage show...:laughing7:

Finally, they have their XGP series, which is their "high end" offering. I put scare quotes on there because if you're used to Warmoth parts, it's a bit facetious to call these parts "high end", but everything's relative. For GFS, those parts are the whip. And to be fair, they are dimensionally correct, which means you can usually bolt on standard parts without issue, and the finish is better than the vast majority of DIY finishes you'll see. The wood is a couple/few grades down, and bodies will often come as 3 or more piece glue-ups, but that's not the end of the world. You know to expect that on the going-in side. For what they cost, they're a helluva deal. Bolt a Warmoth neck on one with some decent pickups/hardware, and you've got a lotta guitar.

If you wander around the site, you'll see they sell a lotta hardware at remarkably low prices. As long as you're careful about dimensions (it's mostly metric stuff), you can often get some very attractive deals.

The real stars of the show at GFS are the pickups. Surprisingly high quality, dimensionally correct, great-sounding pickups for a fraction of what you'd expect to pay. I'd put them up against any of the usual suspects and not worry they'd come out wanting.

 

[stratamania]

Here is a comparison video of Warmoth vs Guitar Fetish bodies.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdT-uIQujXU[/youtube]

 

[rgand]

Here is a comparison video of Warmoth vs Guitar Fetish bodies.

Thanks for the video.  :icon_thumright:

 

[WindsurfMaui]

:sad:

Getting back to the original issue. If I want to leave the ash Strat a natural color but want to grain fill in a vibrant red what are my options? I've seen the black and brown grain filled varieties and the black and brown colors are kind of dull. I would like the red to be a very strong vibrant red, not neon but a very strong red. Is that possible at all? Or will any red be more of a matte or weak shade just because of the process?

 

[Cagey]

The grain is deep and wide on swamp Ash. Fill it with any grain filler that'll take pigment (not dye/stain), which is all of them, and sand it back. You'll be back to the natural color of swamp Ash but with [insert color here] grain. Shoot that with several coats of clear, finish sand it, buff it out, polish it, and call it a love story.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

The grain is deep and wide on swamp Ash. Fill it with any grain filler that'll take pigment (not dye/stain), which is all of them, and sand it back. You'll be back to the natural color of swamp Ash but with [insert color here] grain. Shoot that with several coats of clear, finish sand it, buff it out, polish it, and call it a love story.

Yes I'm looking for a recommendation of a pigment that is very strong rich shade.

 

[Cagey]

I've had good luck with Colortone pigments. They don't come in a lotta shades; usually you mix colors to get what you want. The base colors are pretty much just fundamental colors, so the red is a textbook example of red. If you wanna darken it, maybe add some black. Lighten with white. Orange it up with yellow. Purple it up with blue. Like that.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

I'm hoping the red grain will really pop and look like rivers of hot lava against the natural color of the ash. I'm not sure what shade of red will do that. A Ferrari red or a candy apple red, etc. I'm hoping someone has used a red pigment in some application that it really holds it's vibrant color when mixed with other substances like a clear grain filler. I'm afraid that the vibrance I'm looking for won't be available in a water based pigment.

 

[WindsurfMaui]

  :redflag:  Just a quick update. I haven't purchased the body I want yet. Still trying to decide between Soloist and Strat. Plus learning a lot about finishing both for body and necks. May try roasted maple neck with roasted fretboard or ebony fretboard. So many good options hard to make a decision.  :help:

 

[Tomatonator]

For lava maybe you could try a grain fill transition/burst/gradient from orange to the red you want.