Sustain killers?

[bluestometal]

Hi guys

I'm enjoying some of my free time playing my newly built strat (Warmoth maple/rosewood neck, unknown cheap asian ash body, Gotoh GE101t tremolo bridge, Schaller locking, Seymour Duncan sh-4 + sh-2); the guitar has good volume and sustain unplugged but when I play it plugged into my rig the sustain's pretty inesistent, I mean the note decay falls very short (sorry for my bad english). Of curse I understand I cannot have on this guitar the same sustain I get from my other set-neck all mahogany guitars but I notice a huge difference between the unplugged resonance and sustain and the plugged tone so, as you know, what is a known sustain killer? Thanks.

 

[Maka491]

Hi,

What you dont tell us is the rest of your setup. Amp? Settings? Pedals in signal? etc.. There are quite a few factors that can affect this.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

First guess would be pickup height.  I'd back them down a bit, and then raise the bridge one until the sound/sustain sounded about right.  Then raise the neck pickup so that it's volume is similar to the bridge and go from there.
Patrick

 

[bluestometal]

Hi,

What you dont tell us is the rest of your setup. Amp? Settings? Pedals in signal? etc.. There are quite a few factors that can affect this.

Guitar--->Reference cable--->Mesa/Boogie Triaxis--->T.C. Electronic G-Major (in loop)--->Mesa/Boogie Power Amp--->Mesa/Boogie 2x12 Recto Std, all powerd via a Furman power conditioner, all connection made via Reference cables; no pedals used in the chain right now (boost, od, wah). I know my rig and settings well enough to know when the "problem" is somwhere else  :icon_biggrin: Comparing the sustain of other guitars (bolty or set-neck, EMG's or Duncan's) with the same settings the difference's pretty dramatic.

First guess would be pickup height.  I'd back them down a bit, and then raise the bridge one until the sound/sustain sounded about right.  Then raise the neck pickup so that it's volume is similar to the bridge and go from there.
Patrick

Yeah, I thinked about that too but wouldn't be the same with the guitar unplugged? I mean, the problem with pick-up height is that the magnets tend to attract the strings and block them so it works with the jack plugged or not when in this case the sound's full and even for a good bit on the acoustic side but falls short and "unevenly" on the electric side. I'm not used to tremolo equipped guitars and straight headstocks so I don't know if what looks so bad to me it's normal on a strat type guitar.

 

[Patrick from Davis]

I agree, but the physics would imply that is where it would be on the guitar.  If it is not a problem with the guitar, then it is the signal chain.  The easiest thing to check is the pick up height, so I'd start there.
Patrick

 

[Cagey]

That T.C. Electronic G-Major unit has a "noise gate" function. Perhaps the settings on that are adjusted to where you're killing notes off early. This would be compounded by pickups that are set a bit lower in the body (farther from the strings) than usual. You'd get exactly the symptoms you're hearing: acoustically the guitar rings, but electrically it's a bit abrupt.

 

[swarfrat]

The strings still pass through the magnetiuc field even when not plugged in, so if too close pickup is dampening the string, it doesn't really matter if its plugged in or not

 

[bluestometal]

That T.C. Electronic G-Major unit has a "noise gate" function. Perhaps the settings on that are adjusted to where you're killing notes off early. This would be compounded by pickups that are set a bit lower in the body (farther from the strings) than usual. You'd get exactly the symptoms you're hearing: acoustically the guitar rings, but electrically it's a bit abrupt.

Right now I'm not using any noise reduction on any of my presets also my main crunch tone has everything (hard) bypassed with the Triaxis straight into the PowerAmp. I've reopened the pickguard and rechecked the whole wiring and resoldered something that may looked cold or sloppy (just in case)... also tomorrow I'll be putting a treble bleed mod in it  :icon_jokercolor: (never had it, just having some fun experimenting), 150k + 1nf cap looks good to you?.

 

[bluestometal]

The strings still pass through the magnetiuc field even when not plugged in, so if too close pickup is dampening the string, it doesn't really matter if its plugged in or not

Yup, that's what I said  :icon_thumright:

 

[-CB-]

the guitar has good volume and sustain unplugged but when I play it plugged into my rig the sustain's pretty inesistent, I mean the note decay falls very short (sorry for my bad english).

Resonance is the killer of sustain.  Think of in these terms - lets compare a guitar string on a nice loud acoustic guitar, and the exact same string strung up, at the same scale length, upon a concrete pillar.  Which one vibrates the longest?

On the acoustic guitar, the top is set such that the bridge will wiggle is, and the top resonates to produce the volume of the acoustic guitar.  Energy from the string vibrating is transferred to the bridge, and also to the top of the guitar.  In a lesser degree, also to the neck of the guitar through the fret or nut.  There is a lot of decay because the the energy is transferred to resonant parts - the top, and the neck.

On the concrete pillar, how much will the string be able to make the concrete pillar move?  Not much.  An imperceptible degree.  In that case, the string will retain its own energy, and vibrate longer.

It is a fallacy and misnomer ... when guitar players will say "this guitar is so resonant, it will sustain for days....".  If that were the case, the acoustics would sustain for years.  We know this not to be the case, and by degree, can also see that its also not the case with any sort of resonant solid body guitar.

On the solid body, two things eat up string energy.  First is the neck itself, the other is the bridge setup.  Any tremolo bridge, with its spring setup, will tend to absorb energy into the springs, and you'll lose sustain.  Similarly, the neck is far more resonant than the body, and some necks will absorb more energy from the string, and at differing frequencies (overtones).  It can be seen that some woods used for necks are brighter, others less bright, others lose both top and bottom end frequencies and are thought to be "middy", while yet others lose mid tones and are said to have a scooped tone.... just like we describe pickups.

Why your guitar isn't sustaining... the exact cause... can't say, but in general, if its loud and resonant, it will not sustain as well as an instrument that is not.

 

[bluestometal]

the guitar has good volume and sustain unplugged but when I play it plugged into my rig the sustain's pretty inesistent, I mean the note decay falls very short (sorry for my bad english).

Resonance is the killer of sustain.  Think of in these terms - lets compare a guitar string on a nice loud acoustic guitar, and the exact same string strung up, at the same scale length, upon a concrete pillar.  Which one vibrates the longest?

On the acoustic guitar, the top is set such that the bridge will wiggle is, and the top resonates to produce the volume of the acoustic guitar.  Energy from the string vibrating is transferred to the bridge, and also to the top of the guitar.  In a lesser degree, also to the neck of the guitar through the fret or nut.  There is a lot of decay because the the energy is transferred to resonant parts - the top, and the neck.

On the concrete pillar, how much will the string be able to make the concrete pillar move?  Not much.  An imperceptible degree.  In that case, the string will retain its own energy, and vibrate longer.

It is a fallacy and misnomer ... when guitar players will say "this guitar is so resonant, it will sustain for days....".  If that were the case, the acoustics would sustain for years.  We know this not to be the case, and by degree, can also see that its also not the case with any sort of resonant solid body guitar.

On the solid body, two things eat up string energy.  First is the neck itself, the other is the bridge setup.  Any tremolo bridge, with its spring setup, will tend to absorb energy into the springs, and you'll lose sustain.  Similarly, the neck is far more resonant than the body, and some necks will absorb more energy from the string, and at differing frequencies (overtones).  It can be seen that some woods used for necks are brighter, others less bright, others lose both top and bottom end frequencies and are thought to be "middy", while yet others lose mid tones and are said to have a scooped tone.... just like we describe pickups.

Why your guitar isn't sustaining... the exact cause... can't say, but in general, if its loud and resonant, it will not sustain as well as an instrument that is not.

Thanks for the the more technical explanation, really clear; about the last part I've to disagree: my ESP's are crazy loud and resonant unplugged and, when plugged, have a full, huge tone and volume and sustain for days, on the other ahnd I've tried several (hi-end) guitars that have 0 tone and sustain acousticaly and have the same weakness when plugged in (just think Ibanez... minus the Andy Timmons maybe). To get back at your point probably it's certain factors working together and, maybe, being me not used to tremolo strat guitars the dramatic difference I see it's just the normal difference between so different built intruments.

 

[Ace Flibble]

I think perhaps there needs to be some distinction made between what is technically 'resonance' and what the typical guitar player calls 'resonance'. Because yes, resonance is the enemy of sustain; 'resonance', however, is its lifeblood.

In all my many experiements with swapping gear around, A/Bing like-for-like and generally picking up every guitar I can lay my hands on, I've come to the (albeit completely circumstantial, anecdotal and very subjective) that a guitar will sustain better the more clean, simple mass it has to it, assuming your comparison is to a guitar made to a similar standard (for example, comparing a PRS Custom 22 with a wraparound bridge to a Custom 22 with a vibrato bridge; let's not talk about crazy comparisons like ES-335s against Strats, because in those sorts of cases there's simply too many variables to confidently attribute changes in tone or sustain to any one point of specification).

As a simple example, one thing I've noticed consistent results with is comparing a guitar with a tune-o-matic and stopbar bridge to one with a tune-o-matic and string-through design; given the same woods, same construction, same layout, scale length, similar pickups and so on, the guitars with stopbars will keep a note ringing out noticably longer than their string-through equivalents.

Another is the common 6-screw Stratocaster vibrato compared to a recessed Floyd Rose design. Again, it's very easy to find multiple guitars that have the same spec other than the bridge/nut difference, and I've certainly noticed an increase in power, sustain and bass with the 6-screw bridge, while the recessed Floyd always gives a thinner tone, even when the rest of the guitar is as identical as any two guitars can be. Funnily enough, having a non-recessed Floyd does indeed frequently lead to a tone halfway between the two.

The only oddballs are chambered and semi-hollow designs and the Warmoth Pro neck.
I tend to feel like hollow or chambered guitars sustain better than solid equivalents in the lower price brackets, but in higher-quality guitars it seems that solids consistently sustain better. This is something that's harder to compare, since really only Les Pauls are frequently available both chambered and solid with similar woods, construction, hardware and electronics. I want to get my hands on some more Teles and Thinline Teles at various price points before drawing any real conclusions.
As for the Pro neck, I can only speak of the ones I've bought myself and the small number that friends and other locals have had, but it seems to me when comparing like-for-like, the more common truss rod and construction ('vintage modern', in Warmoth terms) sustains better than the Pro construction, but the Pro carries the lowest and the highest frequencies better for sharper initial attack and more clarity on the lowest strings. Again, this is a much harder thing to test and is taken form a much, much smaller sample size. This is another thing I'm keen to investigate further, though I am confident in saying that is sustain is your goal then a more standard neck construction may be your best bet and if clarity is what you want then Pro is the way to go.

So, if your guitar has a Pro neck, vibrato when you're used to fixed bridges and more wood routed out (Strats are never routed particularly conservatively) then yes, I would expect the guitar to not hold notes as well as your other guitars.


As for the unplugged vs electric thing, I own, have owned and have played more guitars than I can count that have sounded one way unplugged and acted entirely different once I turned the amp on. I've had guitars that have sounded acoustically dead but been very lively plugged in and just as many that have sounded great by themselves and totally dead amplified. I feel that half the blame in these cases lays with the amplifier and how the player has set the amp.

 

[bluestometal]

I think perhaps there needs to be some distinction made between what is technically 'resonance' and what the typical guitar player calls 'resonance'. Because yes, resonance is the enemy of sustain; 'resonance', however, is its lifeblood.

In all my many experiements with swapping gear around, A/Bing like-for-like and generally picking up every guitar I can lay my hands on, I've come to the (albeit completely circumstantial, anecdotal and very subjective) that a guitar will sustain better the more clean, simple mass it has to it, assuming your comparison is to a guitar made to a similar standard (for example, comparing a PRS Custom 22 with a wraparound bridge to a Custom 22 with a vibrato bridge; let's not talk about crazy comparisons like ES-335s against Strats, because in those sorts of cases there's simply too many variables to confidently attribute changes in tone or sustain to any one point of specification).

As a simple example, one thing I've noticed consistent results with is comparing a guitar with a tune-o-matic and stopbar bridge to one with a tune-o-matic and string-through design; given the same woods, same construction, same layout, scale length, similar pickups and so on, the guitars with stopbars will keep a note ringing out noticably longer than their string-through equivalents.

Another is the common 6-screw Stratocaster vibrato compared to a recessed Floyd Rose design. Again, it's very easy to find multiple guitars that have the same spec other than the bridge/nut difference, and I've certainly noticed an increase in power, sustain and bass with the 6-screw bridge, while the recessed Floyd always gives a thinner tone, even when the rest of the guitar is as identical as any two guitars can be. Funnily enough, having a non-recessed Floyd does indeed frequently lead to a tone halfway between the two.

The only oddballs are chambered and semi-hollow designs and the Warmoth Pro neck.
I tend to feel like hollow or chambered guitars sustain better than solid equivalents in the lower price brackets, but in higher-quality guitars it seems that solids consistently sustain better. This is something that's harder to compare, since really only Les Pauls are frequently available both chambered and solid with similar woods, construction, hardware and electronics. I want to get my hands on some more Teles and Thinline Teles at various price points before drawing any real conclusions.
As for the Pro neck, I can only speak of the ones I've bought myself and the small number that friends and other locals have had, but it seems to me when comparing like-for-like, the more common truss rod and construction ('vintage modern', in Warmoth terms) sustains better than the Pro construction, but the Pro carries the lowest and the highest frequencies better for sharper initial attack and more clarity on the lowest strings. Again, this is a much harder thing to test and is taken form a much, much smaller sample size. This is another thing I'm keen to investigate further, though I am confident in saying that is sustain is your goal then a more standard neck construction may be your best bet and if clarity is what you want then Pro is the way to go.

So, if your guitar has a Pro neck, vibrato when you're used to fixed bridges and more wood routed out (Strats are never routed particularly conservatively) then yes, I would expect the guitar to not hold notes as well as your other guitars.


As for the unplugged vs electric thing, I own, have owned and have played more guitars than I can count that have sounded one way unplugged and acted entirely different once I turned the amp on. I've had guitars that have sounded acoustically dead but been very lively plugged in and just as many that have sounded great by themselves and totally dead amplified. I feel that half the blame in these cases lays with the amplifier and how the player has set the amp.

I find very interesting the difference between Vintage Modern and Pro construction you pointed out, I din't read such dinstinction elsewhere.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

Just get one (or more) of these:

Switch sustain on/off.

:glasses9:

 

[bluestometal]

Just get one (or more) of these:

Switch sustain on/off.

:glasses9:

Haha, yeah, I remember having some fun with one of those on a friend's guitar  :toothy12:

 

[Maka491]

What string tree, saddles and nut are you using?

When buying or building a guitar I make sure I have the following:

Graph tech string tree, nut, and string saver saddles
Plenty of Big Bends Nut sauce on all the above components.

The reasons are simple. When you strum a string it literally rotates around. Every single element it touches of course will slow this down and reduce the time it takes to stop turning. I make sure that every thing that string touches while making its circles is as slippery as possible.....but dont go now oiling your fingers!  :icon_biggrin:

I have seen a massive difference in sustain, string breakage, tuning and even tone by applying the above.

I hope this helps.

 

[drewfx]

Does this guitar have a different tonality than your other guitars? Sometimes I think that guitars that emphasize a string's higher frequencies - which naturally decay quicker - seem to have less sustain than guitars that lack those high frequencies. Just a theory.

Other than that, the only things I can think of are the PU's possibly being too low (as others have mentioned), or the output level being significantly lower on this guitar than your others, thus driving the amp much less.

 

[bluestometal]

What string tree, saddles and nut are you using?

When buying or building a guitar I make sure I have the following:

Graph tech string tree, nut, and string saver saddles
Plenty of Big Bends Nut sauce on all the above components.

The reasons are simple. When you strum a string it literally rotates around. Every single element it touches of course will slow this down and reduce the time it takes to stop turning. I make sure that every thing that string touches while making its circles is as slippery as possible.....but dont go now oiling your hands!  :icon_biggrin:

I have seen a massive different in sustain, string breakage, tuning and even tone by applying the above.

I hope this helps.

Gaphtech tusq nut and tree, steel saddles (stock on the Gotoh bridge).

Does this guitar have a different tonality than your other guitars? Sometimes I think that guitars that emphasize a string's higher frequencies - which naturally decay quicker - seem to have less sustain than guitars that lack those high frequencies. Just a theory.

Other than that, the only things I can think of are the PU's possibly being too low (as others have mentioned), or the output level being significantly lower on this guitar than your others, thus driving the amp much less.

What do you mean for different tonality? If you mean what I think then: yes, this guitar is pretty bright having a maple neck and an ash body while my other guitars are pretty darker and deep being, mostly, all mahogany. About the pickups the others were saying I've it setted too hight (so the magnetic field tends to retain the strings) not too low.

 

[Maka491]

Try the saddles change and some lubricant under all those areas I mentioned as well as checking your pickup height and anything in your signal.

 

[Jet-Jaguar]

You know, I wonder if it could be something with the wiring; if you're using 4-conductor you could be getting it out of phase.  Is the sound thin?