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Stupid mistake - polyurethane and lacquer

SimsCustomShop said:
...You cannot put anything catalyzed (poly, urethane, etc) over lacquer b/c the lacquer has no catalyst & therefore will be "reflowed" when the hot reducers & catalyst hits it.....resulting in a list of potential problems.

I used Spray Max 2K Urethane clear over Duplicolor lacquer on my Challenger guitar project. It was completed a month ago and there are no apparent defects in the finish...

=CB= said:
...Nothing touches Fender's "poly" finish.  Warmoths is similarly... pretty tough stuff...

Fender and Warmoth both use Urethane as their finishing material...

Jimmy: If you decide to re-finish your bass again (I had to start over too once), get Duplicolor's Filler/Primer instead of just the primer. It fills the wood grain and primes in one shot. Good luck...
 
MedianMusic1 said:
SimsCustomShop said:
...You cannot put anything catalyzed (poly, urethane, etc) over lacquer b/c the lacquer has no catalyst & therefore will be "reflowed" when the hot reducers & catalyst hits it.....resulting in a list of potential problems.

I used Spray Max 2K Urethane clear over Duplicolor lacquer on my Challenger guitar project. It was completed a month ago and there are no apparent defects in the finish...

=CB= said:
...Nothing touches Fender's "poly" finish.  Warmoths is similarly... pretty tough stuff...

Fender and Warmoth both use Urethane as their finishing material...

Jimmy: If you decide to re-finish your bass again (I had to start over too once), get Duplicolor's Filler/Primer instead of just the primer. It fills the wood grain and primes in one shot. Good luck...

Ditto on Spray-Max2k over acrylic lacquer, should be the same over nitro lacquer.  Urethane epoxy finish... to the best of my knowledge. 
 
=CB= said:
Again, there is poly, and there is poly, and yet again, poly.

For the sake of being redundant - one more time - not all "poly" is the same....Some poly can be reflowed! 

When I say "poly" I'm referring to Polyester & Polyurethane, both of which are catalized & neither can be reflowed. ANYTHING that cures chemically cannot be reflowed or rewetted.

Truthfully, I don't know of ANY "Poly" clear coat that can be reflowed, b/c all poly clear coats I'm aware of have catalysts in them.
 
Once again - because it says POLYurethane, does not mean its an expoy type, canalized finish.  For instance, there are polyurethane floor finishes - one part, air dry, and yes, they do reflow - to a point at least.  There are all the spray/brush polyurethane consumer grade finishes, these will wrinkle with acetone and or other strong solvents.  Then there are the true canalized finishes polyurethane finishes which really... are a bugger to get off.

There is also polyester - tougher still than polyurethane epoxy finishes.  Not sure how it is to work with, but its specialized.  Like I said before, Fender used that as a structural element of one of their el-Chapo Strat and Tele models back some years ago.  It was tough enough to hold the wood together!~
 
Sims is correct. I was thinking of single component polyurethane.  Two-component urethanes are too hot to put over lacquers.  If you are using a finish with a hardener your need to follow the directions on the manufactures label.
 
Whatever anyone's opinion is, I've actually seen pics from a former board member who shot Deft lacquer on top of some poly (might have been Minwax in black, but don't remember exactly) and wound up with a bubbly, gooey mess. While it makes sense that you could put poly on top of properly cured lacquer and not have an issue, shooting lacquer over poly is a crapshoot.

Lacquer is pretty much just lacquer, a given, but as pointed out in some of the above posts, there's a wide array of finishes labeled "poly"....
 
To be specific, we (=CB= and I) are talking about automotive grade Lacquer paint (made by Duplicolor) and automotive grade Urethane clear (made by Spray Max), not the furniture brands. And yes, you must allow the Lacquer to cure first before applying the clear.

Before I started my Challenger guitar project using the above mentioned automotive brands, I called both manufacturers who stated that it can be done, but advised me to first test them for my particular application (i.e., guitars) to be 100% sure. I can testify that they are indeed compatible when done properly...

I followed the paint your own guitar e-book techniques by John Gleneicki...
 
And there, in the last two posts, is the waiters pus infected thumb in the patrons bowl of soup.*

I'll add, that I've used the SprayMax over black ... think it was Minwax lacquer.  I know I got it at Home Depot.  Worked fine.  Just a touch up for trim on my truck when I shot the fender on the bike.  No issues on the cheap lacquer.  Between lacquer and clear was maybe... 30-45 minutes.
















*The patron did ask why the waiter was placing his pus infected thumb in his soup, to which the waiter replied that his physician advised soaking it in something hot.  That prompted the patron to suggest the waiter place his thumb up his bum instead.  The waiter replied, that's exactly what he did while out back in the kitchen.
 
MedianMusic1 said:
you must allow the Lacquer to cure first before applying the clear.

Lacquer doesn't cure.....EVER. NOTHING can "cure" unless it has a catalyst. Lacquer (or anything that air dries for that matter) will only DRY....but never cure. Some of you don't know what CURE means, and use it loosely & think it means the same thing as dry, and it doesnt.

To CURE means the finish is chemically locked (by a hardner/catalyst) and cannot be reflowed or rewetted once this process is complete.
DRY means all the solvents have evaporated out of a substrate & can be touched & handled, but CAN BE reflowed/rewetted b/c it is not CURED.

Nothing can "CURE" unless it has a catalyst. Period. It can only DRY. And ANYONE who says a finish is CURED that doesnt have a catlayst/hardner in it doesn't know what their talking about.

Example. You could take a 1959 Les Paul, hold a hair dryer over 1 paticular spot for about 30 sec then touch that spot & you would get paint on your finger......b/c IT CANT CURE.....not in 1 month, not in 1 year, not in 50 years. However, do the exact same thing to a guitar thats been painted in a 2 part system (Urethane, Polyester, Polyurethane, etc) and it will not be soft, you will not get paint on your finger, b/c it cannot be rewetted, b/c its CURED. (Chemically...and theres no other way something can be cured other than chemically)
 
Polymerization by the action of atmospheric oxygen (autoxidation) is curing, b/c its a process of reacting monomer molecules together in a chemical reaction to form three-dimensional networks or polymer chains. There are many forms of polymerization and different systems exist to categorize them, oxidative crosslinking, catalyzed polymerization, and coalescence.

NOT CATALYST/HARDNER or Chemical recation to bond the molecurles together - NO CURING
AIR DRY PAINT - NEVER CURES, BUT ONLY "DRIES"

Definition of CURING & DRYING taken from my PPG Product Training Manual (Did I mention I'm a Level 5 Master Refinishing Technician?):

"At its most basic, curing of a paint is when it turns from a pliable state to a solid state throughout, not just "dry". Curing of paint is not the same as drying as it's a change at chemical level, not merely the evaporation of liquid or binder from the paint. *Note that drying and curing are two different processes. Drying refers to evaporation of solvents, whereas Curing refers to polymerization of the binder. Depending on chemistry and composition, any particular paint may undergo either, or both processes. Thus, there are paints that dry only, those that dry then cure, and those that do not depend on drying for curing.Paints that dry by simple solvent evaporation contain a solid binder dissolved in a solvent; this forms a solid film when the solvent evaporates, and the film can re-dissolve in the solvent again. Classic nitrocellulose lacquers fall into this category. Paints that cure by catalyzed polymerization are generally two package coatings that polymerize by way of a chemical reaction initiated by mixing resin and hardener [/color], and which cure by forming a hard plastic structure. Depending on composition they may need to dry first, by evaporation of solvent. Classic two part epoxies or polyurethanes would fall into this category."
 
All true when you're talking automotive finishes (as we do commonly use on guitars).  But there are a lot of wood finishes... also commonly used, that air polymerize, and cannot be rewetted/reflowed. 

This examination into the semantics of what the OP stated tend to cloud the issue, because he was saying what (I think) most folks understood it to mean - which was wait till the lacquer is no longer wet before applying the clear coat.  All I know is - he did a great job on that Challenger he painted, one to be proud of, and he used and applied the materials in a manner with which to get what appears to be an excellent end result.

 
Fight, Fight, Fight....

I'll put my money on the old guy with the weapons cache over the "Level 5 Master Refinishing Technician"/Pseudo-chemist....
 
SimsCustomShop said:
Lacquer doesn't cure.....EVER. NOTHING can "cure" unless it has a catalyst.

No, or at least not always.

Some catalysts only accelerate a reaction that would already occur.  Sometimes they allow the reaction to proceed more rapidly, others allow the reaction to occur at lower concentrations, but ultimately catalysts are not always necessary for a chemical reaction ('cure') to take place.  Also, to be entirely pedantic, if the substance is in any way altered during the reaction it is not a catalyst, but instead is a component of the reaction.

Many of today's 'water based' products are binary suspensions in water, with each of the two hydrocarbon based components held separate from each other by the water phase, as the water vehicle evaporates the two hydrocarbon based solutions mix and the concentrations of the relevant chemicals rises to the point where the reaction (polymerization) can occur. 

If it is a water based product and the manufacturer recommend filtering prior to applications bet money that it is a binary.
 
jackthehack said:
Fight, Fight, Fight....

I'll put my money on the old guy with the weapons cache over the "Level 5 Master Refinishing Technician"/Pseudo-chemist....

When in doubt, just step back, and order up two beers - one for you, one for person you're having the discussion with.  Its not worth goin' on and on about what is essentially the technical use of a word, where its intended meaning (I think) was pretty certain.

Barkeep... TWO BEERS!  ... NO, MAKE IT THREE!~ JACK NEEDS ONE TOO!~
 
=CB= said:
jackthehack said:
Fight, Fight, Fight....

I'll put my money on the old guy with the weapons cache over the "Level 5 Master Refinishing Technician"/Pseudo-chemist....

When in doubt, just step back, and order up two beers - one for you, one for person you're having the discussion with.  Its not worth goin' on and on about what is essentially the technical use of a word, where its intended meaning (I think) was pretty certain.

Barkeep... TWO BEERS!  ... NO, MAKE IT THREE!~ JACK NEEDS ONE TOO!~
I'll take a Coca-Cola. A cold one, in a glass bottle. Classic, btw. Not diet/caffeine free/NEW.
Also, an ice water. Crushed ice, about a fifth full of it. Also, a straw. Glass cup. A large class cup.
 
=CB= said:
jackthehack said:
Fight, Fight, Fight....

I'll put my money on the old guy with the weapons cache over the "Level 5 Master Refinishing Technician"/Pseudo-chemist....

When in doubt, just step back, and order up two beers - one for you, one for person you're having the discussion with.  Its not worth goin' on and on about what is essentially the technical use of a word, where its intended meaning (I think) was pretty certain.

Barkeep... TWO BEERS!  ... NO, MAKE IT THREE!~ JACK NEEDS ONE TOO!~

I was already through about a liter and a half of Bordeaux when I posted that...
 
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