Strat Conversion neck Questions and Sound Comparison

chicken-

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So I was all ready to order a 24.75" conversion neck but have read so many opinions regarding the scale length changing the tone and people complaining that the double action truss rod used in the conversion necks are undesirable as well.

I'm more wary of the double truss rod complaints than I am of the scale changing the tone a bit. Is there a reason the conversion necks have to have them?

What I can't find is anybody who has made comparison videos or even a video of somebody with a standard strat with a conversion neck....or single truss neck vs double.  If I do end up ordering one I'll be sure to record some samples of all my pickup selections before I change the neck.
 
Strings are looser and harmonics are closer together on a shorter scale instrument, which definitely affects the tone and feel. If the dual truss rod has an effect, i've never heard it. The only effect I've ever noticed dual truss rods having is to provide for a remarkably stable "set it and forget it" neck.
 
I believe that the main reason you won't find any such videos out in Youtube-land is because there is no difference to be heard.
You will get much, much more different tones from a single guitar by using two different picks (a very overlooked tone changing factor) than from a guitar with either a 25,5" or a 24,75" neck. Or for that matter a single trussrod neck vs a dual trussrod neck.
I use 24" necks on all my guitars. The reason that drove me to this decision is that I want to be able to play comfortably, since my hands are small. As for tones - there's no difference from other necks that are longer. If I want a certain sound from my guitars I'll just have to be sure I have the right pickups, pedals/amps and most importantly - the right speakers. Those factors are way more important to sound than single or dual trussrods.

Oh, and of course ... what picks you use.
 
I have no videos to show (and even if I did, I wouldn't advise you put much stock in anything on YouTube; YouTube compresses the audio so much you really can't gauge anything from there anyway) but I've swapped necks on many guitars, in every combination of Warmoth's 'pro' construction to Vintage Modern/other brands' standard construction, and 25.5" to 24.75" (and 25" and 24") conversion, and done so without changing anything else about the guitar. (Including the wood choices of the necks.) So I feel I have a good handle on what changes to expect.

Tonally, I've only ever noticed the difference between native 25.5" and conversion 24.75" when played clean and with 'American' style amps, like Fenders and Mesas. There's a little more 'snap' to the 25.5", or conversely you could say that the 24.75" is a little softer. It's consistently been a very similar change in sound as changing a guitar from a maple fretboard to a rosewood one, or vice-versa, or changing between common frets and stainless steel or gold frets, except unlike those the scale length is an effect which I only ever hear with those clean, brighter amps. Unlike fretboard or fret material changes, the scale length change disappears once there's a modicum, or with any 'British' (e.g. most Marshalls, Orange) or balanced (e.g. Blackstar, Marshall JVMs) amp.

The feel is the main difference, by far. Less string tension means easier bending and vibrato is both easier to do and has a broader effect. I've not noticed any change in tuning stability or set up stability, though I can't say I ever tolerate unstable guitars anyway.

If you like 24.75" scale, go for it. The difference in sound is there, but it's minimal—inaudible in many scenarios—and can be easily compensated for with electronics. Getting the feel you want is far more important and can't be compensated for in any other way.


For the Pro construction, they definitely have a much brighter sound. Keeping woods, frets, and scale lengths the same, I've swapped from Pro necks to standard necks (which Warmoth calls Vintage Modern; every other brand uses it as standard) and the sound has always become smoother. The low end doesn't change but you get a lot less treble when moving from a Pro neck to a VM/regular neck, and vice-versa; changing a regular neck for a Pro one sees a big increase in treble. Unlike scale length, this is a change which is audible regardless of amp, tone style, or play style.

The more important difference to me, personally, is the feel. Pro necks are far stiffer, both in terms of their stability and also in the way the vibrations through the neck feel in your hand. Pro necks are real bone-rattlers; don't use one if you have RSI or arthritis in your fretting hand! If you think about the difference in feel between a mahogany neck and a maple neck, moving to Pro construction is that same difference again on top.
They're more stable, for sure. The side adjust is a pain in the arse, not very effective, limits what bodies you can use the neck on, and is really ugly and feels bad under the hand. However, once set up the first time I've never had to make a single adjustment to any Pro neck. You do it once and can forget about it. That's about all there is to say about that.
They're also a lot heavier. It depends on the neck profile, woods, and tuners used of course, but when changing like-for-like, Pro necks are consistently a third heavier than their regular counterparts.


As for why Warmoth won't do conversion necks without the 'Pro' truss rod, who knows. Maybe they bought a huge job lot of those and they're still working to get rid of them. Maybe their marketing spiel works for most people and they sell just fine as they are. All I know is that I, personally, would buy more necks from Warmoth if they offered more options with the Vintage Modern construction instead of reserving all the good stuff for Pro construction, as would more of the people I service, repair, and piece together guitars for.
Whether a change in tone or feel is good or bad (or irrelevant) is entirely down to personal preference, but for what it's worth, I've ditched all of the Pro necks I've ever ordered, and replaced them with regular-style equivalents. I kept thinking I'd come around on them, but I never did, so I just stopped trying to live with them and got rid of the whole lot. Additionally, in the last couple of years I can recall only one instance of being asked to fit a Pro neck to a guitar and not then being asked to replace it with a normal one. Everybody else around here (actual here; not 'here' this forum) tries 'em once and wants to switch back, too. For myself it's the weight and the side-adjust which I can't live with; for everyone else I've dealt with it has mostly seemed to be due to the tone. In any case, I still order bodies from Warmoth but get all my own necks from other parts companies, now, and I think I'd only order a neck from Warmoth again if it was a 25.5" Vintage Modern construction; I prefer 24.75" and 24" so I myself am basically guaranteed to never be buying a Warmoth neck again, personally.

Your mileage may vary. As this forum shows, clearly there are loads of people who like the Pro necks.
 
As Warmoth has told me over the phone one aspect of the "Pro" neck with dual acting truss rod is that with "exotic" woods (which are often very hard woods and slightly heavier than maple) any extra umph with the heftier and dual acting truss rod matches well with the wood in question with regard to executing an adjustment if need be. Unless you are a studio player with a very great deal of experience and a highly developed ear I honestly, at this point, do not believe that some of what people worry about manifests itself in a tangible way. That said, one guitar to another can sound slightly different and there are variations people do sense between something like an ebony board as opposed to a rosewood fretboard. I have both the Pro neck and Vintage Modern and since they have different pickups anyway I don't get overly deep into any differences in the tone of the neck. As long as the individual guitar itself makes me happy its good to go.  Ace Fiddle and Cagey are both knowledgeable members here.
 
Thanks guys, I think I'm going to pull the trigger on a Roasted Maple Conversion neck and gold frets. I will record some samples before and after and see how much the sound changes!
 
Well I can't say I'm thrilled with Warmoth's customer service so far.

I was going to have a local luthier cut my nut as everything I've read says you can't cut a nut with good accuracy without the neck being attached to the body. The guy on the phone convinced me otherwise so I decided to trust them.  I figured if they advertise "near perfect" quality workmanship then they would have some way of adjusting for the strings people planned on actually using, so I mentioned in my order notes exactly which gauge I use which then delayed my order because they had to email me and tell me they cut every nut exactly the same for standard 10 gauge strings and get my permissions to go ahead and do it anyway.

So I quickly went from "near perfect nut" to something that will probably need adjustment. They should really specify these things when making claims like that.

So my order finally went through on May 19. On June 1st it arrived. The nut was clearly not cut correctly, and I'm also going to have to drill 2 holes per tuner just to install them, I wish they'd mention that when choosing tuner holes because I thought I'd just be able to install them...I don't have an accurate drill nor am I good enough with one to want to drill into my brand new headstock so I'll now have to pay somebody else to do that too.

So after being convinced to pay for their "near perfect nut" (if you use 1 specific gauge of strings), I get a completely unusable product that they ship via the slowest method possible instead of using USPS priority which arrives in 3 days for the same price.

I talked with somebody there, who said they'd "make it right" but aren't willing to even discount me the $30 I spent to have them cut a nut wrong, not inspect the product AT ALL before sticking it in a box and shipping it.  He says they have a "no discount policy"...what they need is an "inspect your work before you ship it policy". I don't know about you guys but if I completely botch something I would try and actually make up for it, not just make the customer wait another 2 weeks because of my mistake.  The guy didn't even have the courtesy to call me back like he said he would, I noticed his email asking if I wanted a UPS or USPS label and then 5 hours later I finally got the label to print after the post office had been closed.

June 6 and he emailed me to notify me they received the neck and it was going to the shop for a fresh nut tomorrow and will be "shipped back out ASAP". It is now June 13th and I'm still waiting for this supposed "ASAP shipment". Their communication is bad, their word means absolutely nothing and they do not stand behind their work.

If it were me, I'd have immediately refunded the nut cost, immediately gotten a shipping label out to the customer, and once received put that neck on top priority to get out ASAP. If they had at least done a quick turnaround I wouldn't be complaining but honestly now that they let my neck sit around for a week before deciding to fix it and finally ship it after telling me this would be done "ASAP" I have no reason to hold my tongue anymore. None of these things sound like "making it right" to me at all, and certainly a very loose interpretation of "ASAP".

This is terrible customer service and I have no idea how you have so many good reviews when I've had nothing but half-assed customer service and rhetoric that they don't back up.
 
I'm sorry you're less than thrilled, but there are certain realities to new necks that perhaps you didn't expect.

Some aspects of guitar necks are peculiar to the guitar and/or user, and so can't be easily, reliably or consistently dealt with in a production shop. That's why it's so easy to make fun of Gibson/Fender/J. A. Pan/et al. When Warmoth says their nuts are cut "near perfect", that's what they mean, "near" being the operative word there. You can't cut a nut perfectly without stringing the neck up or knowing what a player's style is. Best you  can do is place the slots accurately and cut them properly, which I assume they did. They usually do. They're done with a CNC machine, and those things are better than any human at that sort of thing. So, it's "near" perfect. They've made many thousands of necks, and have found the points where they can make the most people happy and called it a love story. If they were to go any farther in pursuit of "actual" perfection, chances are very good that warranty return rate would climb steeply because perfection is often in the eye/hand of the beholder. That is, it's subjective and peculiar to a given user.

Once the neck is installed on a guitar, you string it up and at that point you adjust the nut slot widths to accommodate the string gauge set being used and the depths to suit the player. Then it's perfect. For you.

I normally order necks without nuts and tell my customers to do the same, because there's just no way the neck is going to show up correct. It'll have a nut, it'll be properly shaped and the slots will be in the right place at a usable depth, so it's near perfect but still gonna need attention. At least, from my perspective, and generally my customer's as well. I figure if I gotta mess with the nut, lemme start from scratch. Saves my customer money.

As for them not dropping everything they're doing, abandoning every other customer's needs and handling your emergency the very instant UPS handed them your neck, I don't know what to tell you. Sounds pretty unprofessional. I think they ought to liquidate their stock, fire all the employees, close the doors and shoot the owner. Anything less just wouldn't be proportional  :laughing7:

Just so you know - ASAP means "As Soon As Possible". Not instantly, not immediately, not even quickly. Just as soon as possible. Bear in mind that it may not be possible to pay attention to something instantly, immediately, quickly, or even the same day/week/month. That's why that phrase gets used. It's honest, and allows for best effort. If they said anything else, then I'd question their honesty.
 
Well, like I said, the nut came completely botched/unusable so to imply that I'm complaining and thinking they should drop everything for...no reason is rather silly.

I basically said what you just said on the phone to the guy about guitar nuts and he laughed at me and said he's never had to have them adjusted and it wasn't true that you need the body. Given how confident he was, he convinced me that I'd be saving money not having it done by a luthier. I also think it's a no-brainer that they should add a disclaimer that even if they drill out the tuner holes, more drilling is required to actually install any tuners...

And I simply have to disagree with your sarcastic comments, I'm a PC tech, if I screw up somebody's computer I'm not going to make them wait at the back of the line before I bother to fix my mistake. Now that is unprofessional... and so is shipping things without inspecting them first. I'm not talking about hours/days worth of work here, they put the damn thing on a machine and it does it for them, there's no reason why this couldn't have been done quickly for somebody who's now waiting an entire month for his order to be done.

Here's a pic, it's not even close to being usable, let alone near perfect. Why can't their machines be adjusted for different string gauges anyway? Then they could actually stand by that statement (when done correctly).
 

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I agree, that nut looks way off. It's possible the guy you spoke to is one of those people who fall under the heavily populated mid-point on the curve that is happy with the product that's turned out to satisfy that group, which would be unsurprising because normally, their nut work is much better than what you've got there.

In reviewing my post, I also agree that I went down sarcasm road a little unnecessarily. Sometimes I find issue with language and it trips something in my head. I did customer service for a bit 100 years ago and "ASAP" was often taken to mean "instantly" when that's not what it means at all. Of course, if you were to say it differently, like "We'll deal with it as best we can" or "I'll get to that when I'm done with this", then you were in for a chewing-out because it doens't sound like you're appreciating the urgency of their needs. So, then you apologize and tell the customer "I understand this is very important to you and I promise it will get the attention it deserves." Left unsaid was how deserving they were at that point. But, it sounds good because it speaks to their sense of entitlement  :laughing7:
 
That nut wouldn't satisfy ANY group, it's completely unusable.

They received it back on June 5th. It is now the 13th and I have yet to be notified of a shipment. How is that even remotely close to me demanding they drop everything and take care of me instantly?  I think I should've been put at the top of the priority list though and clearly that's not the case.  If they had been willing to refund the $30 I paid for a nut they didn't inspect before shipping I'd be happily waiting but the fact is they are NOT doing much at all to "make this right" like was claimed and are just treating me like a new order that will get done whenever it gets done.
 
chicken- said:
That nut wouldn't satisfy ANY group, it's completely unusable.

I didn't say it would. Quite the opposite.

I also didn't say you demanded they do anything instantly.

I'm sure Warmoth will make good on your neck.

I'm also sure you're not reading my posts, so I'm just gonna stop here.
 
For what it may be worth, after my first neck I started ordering without any nut install and have had qualified individuals install and cut the nut for just slightly more money than paying for Warmoth to put one on it. For my first neck the nut had to be dialed in a bit, which would not be abnormal. I am not doing all the work myself like some of the forum members are able to. I do a bit and finally found a local guy who knows what he is doing and who actually remembers its someone else's guitar and goes by the customers requests. Given that I've twice had to have nuts filed a tad bit further to zero them in just right. I have to agree with Cagey that a well done and dialed in nut is a crucial bit of handwork best done for each guitar. A well executed nut has also allowed me to stop using string trees.

Outfits who are making necks in this country are a small group. Some will not install a nut on a neck they ship to you, Warmoth will. That works for some people but in a go forward sense I support having a neck shipped without one. Its only about $20 more on average to have one hand cut at assembly. I'm a lot more on a rampage about the whacky collection of so called guitar techs in towns and cites across America than I am about Warmoth customer service. That said there have been some I have preferred to speak with when I call over others.  You are still getting good necks and bodies from Warmoth and a lot of their parts are reasonably priced but that does not mean they are perfect. I've heard good things about Musikraft and have looked at their stuff but just try getting a call back from them. Good luck.
 
Well it did ship out today. Unfortunately they use UPS instead of USPS which takes 3-4 days longer for the same price :(
 
I think shipping performance might be somewhat localized. I know the guys in Australia get their packages from Warmoth faster than I do, and I'm in Michigan. Also, depending on where you live, one service or another may handle packages better. For instance, here, I'll pay extra to keep my stuff out of the USPS' hateful hands, while UPS deliveries are always on-time and unscathed. Buddy of mine in Florida has the exact opposite problem. UPS is the kiss of death, while the USPS deliveries are reliable and unmolested.
 
Definitely regional; I would take UPS over USPS any day.  They come much quicker and the packages are usually handled better.  If USPS can get 51% of it in my mailbox, that's where they are going to leave it.
 
Mad Hatter said:
If USPS can get 51% of it in my mailbox, that's where they are going to leave it.
In my area, 51% in the mailbox is considered a luxury! I found my son's college diploma sitting on the support NEXT to the box. Guess I should be thankful they didn't fold it up and just shove it in! Thank goodness it wasn't a windy day....  ???
 
Sorry to hear about the difficulties you have with your neck and nut slot.  I will say from my point (more than a dozen Warmoth necks) I have only had to do the slightest adjustment.  I do admit I am not SUPER crazy about getting my scout to the closest 1000th, but all mine have played well. 

Looking at your photo there is clearly an issue and I suspect they will fix it immediately. 

To your question on the OP, I prefer the 24.75 over the 25.5 for the reasons Cagey stated, feel and harmonics.  I just think the "Gibson" scale is more comfortable, for me.  The strings are looser and harmonics seem easier and more frequent.  I am sure there are just as many folks who prefer 25.5.  Go play a Les Paul and you will see.  Just a note when I string a 24.75 neck with .10 strings, it feels like a 25.5 with .09s.
 
Yea I plan on using the Red set of David Gilmour strings which he uses on his Gibson scale guitars. I'll probably put a set of 10s to start with just to compare the sound with my recordings on the same strings for the fun of it first since nobody seems to have done that. Obviously I can't really point to the scale being the only difference since the wood and frets are also different on my new neck but fun anyway.

Waiting 2 weeks for them to fix their oversight is not fun though, I'm not sure why they didn't want to lift any fingers to do anything extra for somebody after a pretty dumb mistake but I certainly would've done more if I worked there personally.
 
chicken- said:
Yea I plan on using the Red set of David Gilmour strings which he uses on his Gibson scale guitars. I'll probably put a set of 10s to start with just to compare the sound with my recordings on the same strings for the fun of it first since nobody seems to have done that. Obviously I can't really point to the scale being the only difference since the wood and frets are also different on my new neck but fun anyway.

Waiting 2 weeks for them to fix their oversight is not fun though, I'm not sure why they didn't want to lift any fingers to do anything extra for somebody after a pretty dumb mistake but I certainly would've done more if I worked there personally.

Whatever happened on their end, hopefully this will prompt improvement.
 
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