Shielding overkill

SoundAsAnOldEngineer

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Many of the projects documented in the Unofficial Warmoth site have pickup and control cavities shielded with a patchwork of copper foil. I don’t doubt that this is effective. However, I have a feeling that the examples I’ve seen are more elaborate than strictly necessary. I wonder if a simpler approach would be just as effective. This is my theory. Let me know if there’s a flaw. In fact, I’ve absolutely no doubt that will. I’d just like to point out at this point that any reduction in copper foil-related soft tissue injuries can only serve to enhance guitar-playing pleasure.

Copper foil does not screen against magnetic fields, but it does screen against RF interference. The RF is not audible until it is demodulated in some sort of non-linear device. Passive guitars don’t contain non-linear circuits, so the mechanism for audible interference requires some non-linear behaviour in the input stages of the first active device in the signal chain, which is normally an amplifier or effects unit. The amplifier or effects unit has no business in allowing high frequency RF through to the first valve, tube, transistor or IC, so it should be sufficient to shield the guitar against RF interference up to a few MHz. The main culprits in this case are lighting dimmers, switch mode amplifiers, switch mode power supplies and digital effects or computers. As far as I know, we don’t really have problems from radio microphones or cell phones. Or do we?

To be effective, a shield has to have no gaps greater than a quarter wavelength of the interference, and it follows that a shield with a three-inch gap provides some shielding up to 1 GHz. The examples of shielding I’ve seen don’t have any gaps greater than about a quarter inch, where we’re truly into microwave territory.

The other thing to note is that shielding is not very effective where a join or seam occurs in the shield. This means that the weak spot in a typical shielding scheme is between the foil that lines the cavity and the control plate, cover or pickguard. The length of a Telecaster control cavity route is approximately three inches. According to EMC theory, it’s a waste of time covering every piece of the cavity in foil when there’s a three-inch non-bonded gap between the foil and the control plate.

Has anybody got experience of achieving adequate shielding with less elaborate use of foil?
 
I've achieved perfectly adequate shielding with NO foil at all...never used it, never had a problem. I'm always amazed at the elaborate and visually stunning copper foil applications I see here; but...does it actually DO anything at all?
 
I never use foil. Waste of time/money. Shielded cable is the way to go if there's any chance of shielding being effective, as there is with noiseless (humbucking) pickups. Unfortunately, single coil pickups are noisy no matter what you do. They're like a half-mile long antenna just hanging out of the body.
 
1/4 ton of shielding and multiply-shielded components makes people feel good about themselves, and that's always a nice thing! :hello2:

But, like, if you lay down a little patch of copper foil encompassing all the control holes, and ground it, all the controls you affix to it are grounded! Done! Your classic four-knob, wired-together Gibson assembly was a result of the processes used in the Gibson assembly line. One person made those, another one drilled the holes, another one plopped 'em in. To duplicate that in a guitar that's wired by hand is nutty. I've seen some wildly over-grounded devices here, it's analogous to people trying to exactly duplicate the finishing process that was devised by factories to finish 200 guitars at a time. But it's a hobby... maybe extra work makes it a better hobby?  :laughing3: 
 
Well, today seems to be one of those days for shielding topics. I've usually stayed mostly quiet about such, but I'll chime in here. Those that know me will know to expect a long post.

SoundAsAnOldEngineer, you sound to me like you've dealt with such things before, albeit perhaps in different situations? Especially given your title, it sounds as though you've had some formal training in the field. Not that there aren't probably several other forum members with similar background.

There does seem to be a lot of builds here with fully shielded cavities, most often using copper foil. I agree with Cagey (and others) that for standard-issue single coils, shielding the cavity is an exercise in futility. Because the pickup will happily grab most any RF and marry it to your tone, forever after inseverable. While perfect cavity shielding could theoretically prevent any more interference, it's just a case that the bucket is already full, or if you like the horse is already gone - you've already got as much as it is possible to get, so don't bother. Actually, at that point, and for the same reason, there's not really much point in shielded cable either.

So what about humbuckers or "noiseless single coils" (another flavor of humbuckers). There we may be able to do something. All good humbuckers I've seen have shielded cable. That's a good thing. It'll be grounded at the pickup end, and should be grounded at the business end too. So now we have a nice little conductive grounded sheath for it to live in. Some advocate that the point-to-pint wiring in the cavities should also use shielded wiring. And I agree that'd be good, for the same reason - the shield will absorb the RF, so it never gets to the wire. Naturally there's a non-conductive (insulating) layer between the shield and the wire.

But what if that insulating layer were a bit thicker, like a coax? Well, that'd work the same way, wouldn't it? And could you have two conductors inside the same shield? Sure, why not, so long as they're insulated from each other. And what if you made the insulating layer even thicker? Yeah, sure, we already figgered that'd be all the same thing. What about, like, a lot bigger? Like maybe the size of the control cavity? And now the insulating layer is air? Yes, I mean shielding the cavity. Isn't that electrically exactly the same as a multi-conductor shielded wire? Sure it is, so long as we ground the conductive shield. So shielding the cavity is in a practical sense exactly the same as using shielded-wire point-to-point wiring. Except that the shielded cavity is done once, and then all the internal wiring is simple insulated wire, and a while lot easier to do (especially grounding), and neater too.

So what about those holes that SoundAsAnEngineer brought up? Well, even in shielded wire, there are holes in the shield. Even those that aren't woven must have holes at both ends! And the signal-conducting wire extends beyond the shield at every such end (but only a tiny bit). So.... are holes bad?

Yes, they are. Just as bad as antennae that penetrate the shield. Because they let the noise in. Let me give an example. Every day at work I deal with a large Faraday cage - bigger than a two-car garage. And that thing's gotta be sealed perfectly. The walls, ceiling and floor are copper-clad. The only door is pneumatically closed and has conductive seals. All auxiliary power lines in are conditioned DC. All other signal lines must go through solid-state filters embedded in a special conductive panel that is integral with the shield wall. Anything that could conduct corrupting signal into the cage is relentlessly hunted down and killed (usually not a fun or easy exercise). We do pipe in fluids and gases, and use fiber optics a lot, but all that's OK - no 'lectricity. That sucker is as tight to RF as a bathysphere is to water. And it's very seriously grounded. So what we do inside is done in an absolutely purified electromagnetic environment.

And we also have a couple of holes in the wall, into which are welded short pipes, about 3" in diameter, and through these we can pass various lines (e.g., fiber optic) from an assortment of doodads. Hey! What? Holes in the wall?? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the Faraday cage? Like a screen door in a submarine? (thanks for that one Cagey) No, for the reason that SoundAsAnEngineer mentioned. RF cannot pass through an aperture smaller than half (a quarter, to be safe) of its wavelength. So as he said, a hole of three inches is as good as a steel wall to RF below a Gig.

Go look in your microwave. Don't open it, just look through the window. If you can see in there, then can't the microwaves get out? And if I can't put any metal in there, then how does that light bulb work when the thing's turned on? Because both you and the light bulb are protected from the microwaves by a grid of little holes. The microwaves are really just "too big" to get through the holes. Or the crack around the door. The box is a Faraday cage, but the holes are OK, given that their size matches your cutoff frequency. You can make a Faraday cage from chicken wire. Or screen door mesh, so long as it's conductive. Of course, the cage must be grounded in any case.

Coming back to guitars now, then isn't your typical shielding job plenty good enough? I mean, the pickup (humbucker!) wires and ground wire come through tiny holes. The pot shafts need holes a bit bigger, but not by much. So, all good, right? Not quite. Actually, a lot of cavity shielding jobs I see forget all about the door. I mean the control cavity cover. The little land (recess) the cover sits in often gets little or no shielding. And the back (inside) of the cover, if it gets any shielding at all (duh!), often doesn't extend to the full surface. What you need to make a tight cavity is the entire aperture of the cavity to be completely sealed, conductor-to-conductor, around its entire periphery. Gaps are bad. Close the door!

Hey, wait, wouldn't a gap just be a little crack? Yeah, it would. But electromagnetic waves are not really like the simple single squiggly lines you see in drawings. They don't travel just point-to-point. Well, each one does, but there's a lot of them. They're pervasive ... in other words, everywhere. They may be stronger "from" or "to" a particular direction, but they bounce around and you can often consider them to be omni-directional. And they are not polarized. Which means that they vibrate in any and every possible way, perpendicularly to their direction of travel. What all this means is that if you have a crack in your shield, RF of the right size will pour in. A hole in your shield doesn't have to be round. A shield aperture of any size or shape is equivalent to a hole of a diameter equal to the largest extent of the aperture. (Don't ask me about thin curved apertures - the math is thick). So the contact between your copper-clad cavity cover and your clad cover mounting land must not have any single gap longer than the specified maximum.

So will it help? Not necessarily. I've seen guitars where shielding worked. Or at least, they didn't get RFI. But then, they might not have without their shielding either - dunno. And other guitars, even with shielding that looked done well, that were still susceptible to noise. Finicky things, these axes. There's a lot of variables, as each guitar and rig (and environment) is a little different.

So should you shield? My philosophy is ... if you have humbuckers, go ahead if you like, it can't hurt. And it may help. Actually, it probably will help some, but to what extent can't be predicted. And the benefit will probably vary with the environment. But as I said earlier, it could make wiring and grounding simpler and easier. And it's prettier, if that matters to you.

But if you're gonna go to all the trouble and expense to do it, you may as well do it right, or not bother. Make all your holes small. Make sure that nothing penetrates the cage except the pickup leads and the ground. Actually, you can just connect ground to the outside of the cage without bothering to penetrate it. And the pickup shielding should preferably stop at (and be connected to) the shield.  Get the shielding foil right up to the pot holes - heck, cover 'em with foil and poke holes in it after with a pencil. Then screwing down the pots onto the copper grounds 'em. Anything that goes out of the cage (i.e. to jack) must use shielded wire, with its shield grounded at the cage wall. Or if the jack is in a separate cavity, the cage can be built to extend to the output, thus also shielding the jack! And the entire back of the cavity cover and its mounting land must be fully shielded and as much fully in contact as possible. Pretend you're building a fishtank - consider that a good shield would be close to waterproof.

I have one unshielded single-coil guitar. It's a little noisy. Shielding won't help it. I have a couple unshielded humbucker guitars. One's a little noisy. But not enough to motivate me to go to the trouble of shielding in the hopes of making it better. And I do have one build in the works with humbucking pups ("noiseless single coils"), and it's getting shielded. Not because I want to shield the pots and caps, but because it's gonna have a whack of active electronics. And THAT is a grrreat reason to shield. I've had breadboarded boosters and preamps that picked up radio stations. But get that on a circuit board, put it in a cage, and goodbye RFI.
 
Prometheus said:
SoundAsAnOldEngineer, you sound to me like you've dealt with such things before, albeit perhaps in different situations? Especially given your title, it sounds as though you've had some formal training in the field. Not that there aren't probably several other forum members with similar background.

Prometheus is right in his assumptions about my day job and experience. I'm an electrical engineer. I understand the basic theory of electromagnetic compatibility, but I'm not a specialist. I don't have any first hand experience of shielding guitars. I'm rebuiling a Tele and I'll probably add some shielding, so that will make me infinitely more experienced than I am today.
 
Wow, that all made my head hurt...but the fact is, I don't really want my Strats to sound like a Faraday Cage, so I'll continue to skip the 36oz of copper tape that I could be using to hone my hobby.
:icon_smile:
 
I am one of those that believes in shielding with copper foil.  I hate noise, anything that is not an intended signal.  I hate it so much I am willing to go overboard to prevent it.  Strats are particularly obnoxious.  So are single coil Jazz basses when one pickup is favored. 


On my own bass, I remedied this situation by choosing hum canceling split-coil pickups.  They share the characteristic of single coils of sensing each string vibration at only one point.  I also used copious amounts of copper foil tape with conductive adhesive.  Not 32oz worth, but plenty.  I didn't spend all that much, since it's readily available on ebay for cheap.


I shielded the rear route control cavity, and each pickup route, with multiple layers.  I made a copper foil foundation for the bridge, and soldered the bridge ground wire to both the foundation and the interior of the control cavity.  I even shielded the wire channels between the control cavity and the pickup routes, using 1/4" copper tubing from a hardware store.  I used plenty of solder to ensure there were no physical gaps, and as conductivity insurance.  I shielded the control cavity cover plate, and extended the control cavity shielding over the edge to cover the landing all the way around.


The only openings in my shielding is the jack itself (which I don't think counts if there is a jack in it), and the openings of the pickup routes.


Is it overkill?  I'm certain it is.  But I don't care.  The result is a bass with a great tone and utter silence, and to me, that is all the proof I need that it is helpful -- or at the very least, it doesn't hurt anything.


I add that caveat because, as has been mentioned, it is really hard to know for sure how effective shielding can be in reducing noise without an A/B comparison using the same instrument in the same conditions.  But what I know for sure is that where other guitars are annoyingly noisy, my bass isn't.


On TalkBass, there is a lot of discussion about the presence and effect of eddy currents in copper shielding (or other shielding) in close proximity to pickups.  Some people choose not to shield because of what eddy currents might do to the pickup signal.  Such people are willing to deal with noise in order to be sure their pickup signals are not corrupted.  Me?  I don't care.  My priorities are different.  I hate noise, so I will do whatever I think is necessary or helpful to prevent it.  I choose the risk of eddy current signal corruption over the risk of noise. 

If I thought it was possible that shielding could degrade the signal enough to actually be audible, I might think differently about it.  But my bass sounds great -- crystal clear, with all the brightness and punch you could want.  So I plan to similarly shield every bass or guitar I ever have occasion to open up.
 
Great thread, a good read, thanks guys,

I never shield my guitars, I use good pups and cables, no issues  :)
 
SoundAsAnOldEngineer said:

Many of the projects documented in the Unofficial Warmoth site have pickup and control cavities shielded with a patchwork of copper foil...

I’d just like to point out at this point that any reduction in copper foil-related soft tissue injuries can only serve to enhance guitar-playing pleasure.

Has anybody got experience of achieving adequate shielding with less elaborate use of foil?

The whole point of shielding is to intercept any unwanted external EM/RF energy and shunt it neatly to ground so it doesn't affect the signal.  The better the conductor, the better it will do its job.  You can substitute conductive paint or aluminum foil for copper foil, and it will probably be adequate, but it's a compromise. 

For me, your comment about copper foil related soft tissue injuries is like trying to divide by zero.  I have never suffered a copper foil related soft tissue injury.  I'd like to think it's because I'm not a klutz, but it's really because I take my time and I'm careful. Any people with enough dexterity to play guitar should be able to shield a guitar without injury if they're careful.

And I'll make the point again that, for me, guitar playing pleasure is enhanced by the absence of hum or noise.

What precisely do you mean by "patchwork"?  I typically understand that term to mean not uniform, made up of odd bits that don't necessarily fit together properly, etc., so I'm not sure if you were intending it to be a slightly derogatory term referring to copper shielding in general, or not.  Note, I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just want to understand what you mean.  Would you consider the control cavity of my bass, shielded with copper foil tape, to be patchwork?


BrozTone_zps5a35d94c.jpg
 
I would say that's a beautiful job of shielding. I'd also say it's pointless overkill. You're working way too hard. But, I understand where you're coming from - I'm also quite intolerant of noise. Thing is, there's a point of diminishing returns, and you're well past that. Doesn't hurt anything, though, so if you want to go to those extremes, then by all means, have a blast.

I notice you have some wire runs that aren't shielded. If they were, they'd probably be at least as tight as the cage you're trying to create. Wiring with shielded cable is a pain in the shorts, but it's effective and it's less trouble than what you're going through.



 
Hi Cagey, when you mention shielded cable could you give a link to what you use ?

Do you ground the shielding of the cables. Just curious on how you approach this.

More generally on this thread topic I've done copper shielding and also not done it. Unless I am going to use a guitar somewhere it isn't susceptible to noise, my preference is noiseless pickups.

There's another factor involved that isn't scientific at all. If a player has more confidence that when the guitar is shielded perhaps that maybe a reason to do it. It can't hurt and it may help?
 
The stuff I use is pretty common. I get it from StewMac, who sells it either in 50ft reels or 16" lengths.

Shielded_Push-back_Wire_-_50_feet.jpg


Shielded_Push-back_Wire_-_16_inches.jpg

You definitely have to ground the shielding, or it does nothing. One of the pluses to using the naked braid stuff is it gives you targets of opportunity to ground other things as needed. For that, I usually use some bus wire, which is just uninsulated tin-plated copper copper wire...

02781341_00.jpg
 
Cagey said:
I would say that's a beautiful job of shielding. I'd also say it's pointless overkill. You're working way too hard. But, I understand where you're coming from - I'm also quite intolerant of noise. Thing is, there's a point of diminishing returns, and you're well past that. Doesn't hurt anything, though, so if you want to go to those extremes, then by all means, have a blast.

I notice you have some wire runs that aren't shielded. If they were, they'd probably be at least as tight as the cage you're trying to create. Wiring with shielded cable is a pain in the shorts, but it's effective and it's less trouble than what you're going through.

Thanks!  I agree it's overkill, I don't agree that it's pointless.  I'm sure a big part of it is the placebo effect, but there is a functional aspect as well. 

To me, it's insurance. My view on insurance is that you go through life hoping that you never need it -- but when you need it is not the time to find out that what you have is insufficient or crappy or nonexistent.  I don't want to go to a gig and be rudely surprised by the number of neon signs and old TVs and dimmed lights -- in such a situation, I want to not care.

Also, I view it as an aid to troubleshooting.  If my bass ever starts making unwanted noise, my starting point is a lot closer to my ending point.

All my wire runs are shielded.  There is copper tubing lining the wire channels between the control cavity and the pickup routes, and the seems & junctions are all water/bullet/electron-proof.  I read zero ohms from anywhere to everywhere -- I even read zero ohms between the inside wall of my neck pickup and the string retainer on the headstock!  (Yes, I actually checked.)

It may seem like more trouble to you than wiring with shielded wires, but honestly, I find doing it to be kinda relaxing and rewarding, like building a model or something.  And the idea of tinkering with the pickup wires, and possibly screwing them up at the pickup, scares the snot out of me.  Plus, the shielding is permanent, even if I change out pickups or wiring later.

So, speaking only for myself, it's no trouble.
 
Thanks Cagey, now it's clear. The braid is an outer one. For some reason I was thinking inner braid and that's got to be a pain to ground.

I think I may pick up a reel of the stuff and give it a try.

Blue Talon, I also found doing copper work relaxing.
 
stratamania said:
If a player has more confidence that when the guitar is shielded perhaps that maybe a reason to do it. It can't hurt and it may help?

That's exactly what I mean when I refer to the placebo effect and insurance.

A well shielded guitar won't help you play better, but it might help you play more relaxed.
 
BlueTalon said:
stratamania said:
If a player has more confidence that when the guitar is shielded perhaps that maybe a reason to do it. It can't hurt and it may help?

That's exactly what I mean when I refer to the placebo effect and insurance.

A well shielded guitar won't help you play better, but it might help you play more relaxed.

Agreed, that is exactly why I went this way with my Strat build a year or so ago. It has Kinmans, and shielding.

http://unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=22445.msg333829#msg333829

One  of the  things that finally led me on the path to noise free that can work and have great tone was I was in a rehearsal studio and a strat I had was making a lot of noise plugged into someone's rig. One of the guitars he had was a WArmoth build with Kinmans, and it sounded great and totally noise free. No idea if he had shielded it. 


 
Thanks everybody for your interesting replies and for keeping the discussion going. I think the time might be right for a few mid-course clarifications.

I did suggest that shielding using copper foil could be like a patchwork, but no disrespect was intended. The photo provided by BlueTallon shows just how neatly the foil can be used. Rather, I was observing that it's not possible to fully shield an irregularly-shaped cavity using a single piece of foil, so the exercise necessarily involves using several pieces of foil with overlapped joins. That kind of job is not completed in a few minutes.

Then there's the use of the word "overkill". I completely agree that it is very desirable to have a completely quiet guitar or bass. If a continuous copper-clad, gap-free shielding installation is what it takes to stop RFI then to me that would not be overkill. In fact, it would be fully justified.

The comment about soft-tissue injuries was supposed to be somewhat light hearted. I agree it should be possible to do this job without drawing blood, but actually the kind of cut that is produced by copper foil does seem to take a while to heal.

If someone finds it rewarding to use great care and attention to create a visually attractive shielding installation then that's great, but the original question was about whether we can make a quiet guitar or bass with less effort. This is just for the people that want a quiet guitar but don't want to spend a long time with the foil. The EMC theory suggests that we can a good result with less effort, but EMC theory is not overburdened with precision, so it's interesting to learn about the real-life experience of guitar builders.
 
Cagey said:
You definitely have to ground the shielding, or it does nothing. One of the pluses to using the naked braid stuff is it gives you targets of opportunity to ground other things as needed. For that, I usually use some bus wire, which is just uninsulated tin-plated copper copper wire...

With this kind of shielded cable, you just have to ground one end of the shielding, right? I remember reading somewhere that if you ground both ends, you'll run into ground loops.
 
Right. One point is all you need; doesn't have to be at one end or the other, just somewhere along its length. Also won't hurt anything or cause ground loops if it gets grounded in multiple places or you ground things to it because it's a convenient point. Ground loops in guitars are a myth.
 
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