*Resolved* Gotoh 510 woes

[AprioriMark]

I'll still order and recommend, but with the caveat that not all pieces will play nice together.  I sent them my neck and body and they said they were able to get the strings low enough to crash on the frets.  I couldn't.  Here's as low as I was able to get my action - with the strings capo'd on the first fret, the action was only 1/16" lower than what you see.  This is with an arrow-straight neck with no relief, as well.

This is the only negative experience I'd ever had and while I'm glad they went above and beyond, the issue is till persistent and now I'm forced to spend even more to make things right - that's aside from the extra 2 months this issue has pushed back completion of this project - after they sent the body back, I opened the box to find the upper edge had a huge flat spot, as if it had been dropped, though the package was 100% perfect.  I was told that the damage occurred in transit..

They should either test all hardware with all body options or post a warning that things may not work out.  I'm not unreasonable and understand that they don't claim to make kits, but this is something that has occurred before and I'd have sincerely appreciated the warning - especially since I've spent over $4K with them since 2001.

Your neck does need a shim.  My maple shim made the guitar perfect... just shim it and forget it.  I don't believe that they're being honest with you about what they did and didn't try, and I'm sure the action never "bottomed out."  They said something similar to me when I took mine in, but I doubt they even took the neck off.  I'm not trying to badmouth Warmoth at all, but I am being honest. 

-Mark

 

[drewfx]

...while I ordered an angled neck pocket, I didn't order the "sharper angled" neck pocket...

Is that info in their site? Years ago when I ordered a showcase LP model I asked and they told me it was already routed with an angled neck pocket. First time I hear about the sharper angled neck pocket!

That's what I'm getting at.  It isn't information that's available, and when I did everything in my power to ensure that I got what I ordered, I feel that it's on Warmoth to better communicate this potential issue.  I don't mind putting a shim in my guitar, but I'm not comfortable recommending Warmoth for parts to people who expect to get what they order.

-Mark

What am I missing here?  :icon_scratch:
From http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/Options/GuitarNeckPocket.aspx:

ANGLED NECK POCKETS
We offer two different angles.  The big angle is for use with the Gibson Tune-O-Matic type bridges, the Gotoh 510 bridge and the Schaller 456 bridge (all stud mount).  The small angle is for use with a non-recessed Floyd Rose bridge rout to minimize any need for neck shims.

This custom feature option is $10 extra.

 

[Jeremiah]

What is the lower profile bridge you ended up using? I assume it fits the same stud mounting holes as the 510...

 

[AprioriMark]

...while I ordered an angled neck pocket, I didn't order the "sharper angled" neck pocket...

Is that info in their site? Years ago when I ordered a showcase LP model I asked and they told me it was already routed with an angled neck pocket. First time I hear about the sharper angled neck pocket!

That's what I'm getting at.  It isn't information that's available, and when I did everything in my power to ensure that I got what I ordered, I feel that it's on Warmoth to better communicate this potential issue.  I don't mind putting a shim in my guitar, but I'm not comfortable recommending Warmoth for parts to people who expect to get what they order.

-Mark

What am I missing here?  :icon_scratch:
From http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies/Options/GuitarNeckPocket.aspx:

ANGLED NECK POCKETS
We offer two different angles.  The big angle is for use with the Gibson Tune-O-Matic type bridges, the Gotoh 510 bridge and the Schaller 456 bridge (all stud mount).  The small angle is for use with a non-recessed Floyd Rose bridge rout to minimize any need for neck shims.

This custom feature option is $10 extra.

That's what I asked when Rob told me that I needed the "other neck angle." 

I was using a Gibson Lightning Bar style tailpiece, and what was supposed to be very similar to a Gotoh 510 (read: probably the same, but they needed the bridge to know for sure... I never got an answer regarding if the route was the exact same, and I asked several times).  Since my bridge was a wrap-around, similar to a Tune-O-Matic, a route very similar to a 510, and I specified the need for an angled neck pocket on the builder, in the notes, on the phone and in emails, what else should I have done to specify the "proper" neck angle?

All I'm saying is that there seems to be a procedural problem regarding flat top guitars and the 510 bridge route.  Well, that and that I'm not thrilled with how they're handling their mistakes.

-Mark

 

[drewfx]

All I'm saying is that there seems to be a procedural problem regarding flat top guitars and the 510 bridge route.  Well, that and that I'm not thrilled with how they're handling their mistakes.

-Mark

I'm just trying to clear up which of these cases applies to you guys:

1. Ordered, or tried to order, the appropriate thing and didn't get what you ordered (or tried to order) for some reason.
2. Ordered the wrong thing.
3. Gotoh 510 doesn't really work on a flat top without some special-steeper-off-the-menu neck angle that's different from the "big angle/Tune-O-Matic" one. This would seem to contradict the info on their website though.

 

[dmraco]

I think warmoth should limit this bridge route to carved tops.  End of issue.

 

[AprioriMark]

All I'm saying is that there seems to be a procedural problem regarding flat top guitars and the 510 bridge route.  Well, that and that I'm not thrilled with how they're handling their mistakes.

-Mark

I'm just trying to clear up which of these cases applies to you guys:

1. Ordered, or tried to order, the appropriate thing and didn't get what you ordered (or tried to order) for some reason.
2. Ordered the wrong thing.
3. Gotoh 510 doesn't really work on a flat top without some special-steeper-off-the-menu neck angle that's different from the "big angle/Tune-O-Matic" one. This would seem to contradict the info on their website though.

Nope, what happened here was that I ordered something that was on the menu, didn't get that (they admitted that i was given the shallow pocket angle), and they seem to be giving that inappropriate shallow route to flat top buyers selecting the 510 as their bridge route.  To be clear, I have other flat top Warmoth bodies that obviously have an angled pocket.  The body I recently ordered does NOT have that angled pocket.  I see a trend.

-Mark

 

[AprioriMark]

I think warmoth should limit this bridge route to carved tops.  End of issue.

How does this help anything?  The plane where the bridge is mounted is nearly the same.  I've played Warmoth carved top LPs with Am Strat bridges.  How about "Warmoth routes the same neck pocket angle as carved top bodies.  End of issue."

-Mark

 

[fdesalvo]

What is the lower profile bridge you ended up using? I assume it fits the same stud mounting holes as the 510...

Tonepros ATV-II - u have to order their metric studs and it will fit perfectly.

 

[fdesalvo]

I agree with you, but refuse to shim on principal alone. 

I'll still order and recommend, but with the caveat that not all pieces will play nice together.  I sent them my neck and body and they said they were able to get the strings low enough to crash on the frets.  I couldn't.  Here's as low as I was able to get my action - with the strings capo'd on the first fret, the action was only 1/16" lower than what you see.  This is with an arrow-straight neck with no relief, as well.

This is the only negative experience I'd ever had and while I'm glad they went above and beyond, the issue is till persistent and now I'm forced to spend even more to make things right - that's aside from the extra 2 months this issue has pushed back completion of this project - after they sent the body back, I opened the box to find the upper edge had a huge flat spot, as if it had been dropped, though the package was 100% perfect.  I was told that the damage occurred in transit..

They should either test all hardware with all body options or post a warning that things may not work out.  I'm not unreasonable and understand that they don't claim to make kits, but this is something that has occurred before and I'd have sincerely appreciated the warning - especially since I've spent over $4K with them since 2001.

Your neck does need a shim.  My maple shim made the guitar perfect... just shim it and forget it.  I don't believe that they're being honest with you about what they did and didn't try, and I'm sure the action never "bottomed out."  They said something similar to me when I took mine in, but I doubt they even took the neck off.  I'm not trying to badmouth Warmoth at all, but I am being honest. 

-Mark

 

[Cagey]

I [...] refuse to shim on principal alone. 

I think it's a compromise as well. Neck joints are important to sustain and tonal character. Don't want to make 'em squishy.

But, if you're not set up for it, routing an angle on the neck pocket floor is risky business once the body is off the CNC machine, so I understand why some may use the shim solution.

 

[fdesalvo]

If I bought this guitar used, then I'd just shim it and move on with life.

I [...] refuse to shim on principal alone. 

I think it's a compromise as well. Neck joints are important to sustain and tonal character. Don't want to make 'em squishy.

But, if you're not set up for it, routing an angle on the neck pocket floor is risky business once the body is off the CNC machine, so I understand why some may use the shim solution.

 

[AprioriMark]

I [...] refuse to shim on principal alone. 

I think it's a compromise as well. Neck joints are important to sustain and tonal character. Don't want to make 'em squishy.

But, if you're not set up for it, routing an angle on the neck pocket floor is risky business once the body is off the CNC machine, so I understand why some may use the shim solution.

I understand the concern, which is why I used maple.  The rest of the pocket is perfect (typical W), and I doubt the shim has had any negative effect.

-Mark

 

[bagman67]

I agree with you, but refuse to shim on principal alone. 

I sympathize with your frustration - I'd probably be livid myself -- but "on principle" is a good way to not have a guitar that plays the way you want it to.  Kinda cuttin' off your nose to spite your face.  Sure, you're morally right here - but why not shim it, shrug, and say, "Oh, well, guess that didn't go 100% the way I wanted it to"?

 

[fdesalvo]

You did the shim right - I'd have no concerns.

I [...] refuse to shim on principal alone. 

I think it's a compromise as well. Neck joints are important to sustain and tonal character. Don't want to make 'em squishy.

But, if you're not set up for it, routing an angle on the neck pocket floor is risky business once the body is off the CNC machine, so I understand why some may use the shim solution.

I understand the concern, which is why I used maple.  The rest of the pocket is perfect (typical W), and I doubt the shim has had any negative effect.

-Mark

 

[fdesalvo]

Just because I shouldn't have to - it's a bandaid fix for a problem that has been encountered by several people and brought to Warmoth's attention.  If I bought a new car and was told that I needed to install my own aftermarket struts because the factory ones aren't up to spec, I'd be just as upset.  Instead, Warmoth should own up to it and have a factory solution to the problem.

I agree with you, but refuse to shim on principal alone. 

I sympathize with your frustration - I'd probably be livid myself -- but "on principle" is a good way to not have a guitar that plays the way you want it to.  Kinda cuttin' off your nose to spite your face.  Sure, you're morally right here - but why not shim it, shrug, and say, "Oh, well, guess that didn't go 100% the way I wanted it to"?

 

[bagman67]

I feel where you're coming from, Frank.  I hope it eventually gets resolved sufficiently that you can get on with loving an otherwise spectacular guitar.


Peace


Bagman

 

[AprioriMark]

Just because I shouldn't have to - it's a bandaid fix for a problem that has been encountered by several people and brought to Warmoth's attention.  If I bought a new car and was told that I needed to install my own aftermarket struts because the factory ones aren't up to spec, I'd be just as upset.  Instead, Warmoth should own up to it and have a factory solution to the problem.

I agree entirely.  I made my choice based on what's important to me, and I imagine that most of the people I know would feel the same way that you do.  When people pay a premium, they expect to get what they ordered.  For me, I was assembling a guitar from parts and always expect that something will go wonky.  No one can tell (without taking the neck off) that it was shimmed, and that was less of a big deal than the chunk of wood lodged in the wiring route.  That thing was so stuck that I actually had to drill it out. 

Here's hoping they take care of you.  For me, it wasn't worth another 10 week wait.  Lesson learned and all that.

-Mark

 

[fdesalvo]

I appreciate your words, friend.  I'm pos the guitar will rock.

I feel where you're coming from, Frank.  I hope it eventually gets resolved sufficiently that you can get on with loving an otherwise spectacular guitar.


Peace


Bagman

 

[fdesalvo]

Thanks, man.  I def think the showcase strategy you have is the way to go.

Just because I shouldn't have to - it's a bandaid fix for a problem that has been encountered by several people and brought to Warmoth's attention.  If I bought a new car and was told that I needed to install my own aftermarket struts because the factory ones aren't up to spec, I'd be just as upset.  Instead, Warmoth should own up to it and have a factory solution to the problem.

I agree entirely.  I made my choice based on what's important to me, and I imagine that most of the people I know would feel the same way that you do.  When people pay a premium, they expect to get what they ordered.  For me, I was assembling a guitar from parts and always expect that something will go wonky.  No one can tell (without taking the neck off) that it was shimmed, and that was less of a big deal than the chunk of wood lodged in the wiring route.  That thing was so stuck that I actually had to drill it out. 

Here's hoping they take care of you.  For me, it wasn't worth another 10 week wait.  Lesson learned and all that.

-Mark