Recording with Sonar

[AndyG]

I have been driving myself nuts with trying to get a decent recording. I am using Sonar as the software and a Line 6 Tone Port GX as the interface. The computer is plenty fast enough for the task.

The problem I have is that after recording I play it back and it has a very poor quality sound to it. I am using the on board audio hardware but I don't think that is the problem. If I import a drum loop or a sample that comes with the program it sounds great. I have change settings in both Gearbox (Line 6) and in Sonar with no luck.

Has anyone else had much experience using this type setup?

If I can ask a dumb question ...
When you listen to the guitar sound BEFORE you record it, is it to your liking?  If it is, and its just the recording that sucks, it may be the way the signal is being routed in the software.  I don't use Sonar, I use ProTools LE at home, with Amplitube as my "virtual guitar amp".  The way I set it up is I put Amplitube on an Aux input, then route that input to the track I'm recording on.  What comes in is exactly what I get back, and the sounds are VERY believable.  I've recorded plenty of mic'ed up cabinets in the past, and the software gets me as good, if not better quality without pi$$ing off the neighbourhood!

 

[TroubledTreble]

Not a dumb question at all. The sound is fine pre-recording. I have no idea why, but it is now recording everything just fine. I will post screen shot when I can. The levels were never too high, nice and green barely touching the red, and until recently everything sounded like it was recorded with two tin cans and a string in between. Very low-fi.

 

[primal65]

Not sure if this will help but I've found that to get a good recording of guitar on my computer, I need the record level to be pretty low. Like around -20db or lower. I can then increase the level of the track in the mix, but the initial recording is quite low compared to the finished mix.

Personally, I'd be really unhappy with those sort of levels. What I was always advised is to set the input such that the peaks of the recorded wave are just touching -3dB. At that point you should have no issues with digital clipping and you should have the best signal/noise ratio. At -20dB, noise is a far higher proportion of the recording than the -3dB level I've suggested - all you are doing by then increasing the level in the mix is amplifying the amount of noise by the same proportion - perhaps OK for a Korn cover, but not ideal for that sensitive acoustic number.

No offense, but from what I understand this would be terrible advice. Digital recording is much different than analog.  If he's looking at the meters in his software mixer and averaging around -3DBfs he's about 10-15DBs too high. This would leave him absolutely no headroom.

  Any professional recording engineering would be very unpleased with receiving a track recorded that high. In the days of analog that would have been acceptable, as you would probably be pushing the electronics that hard to get that nice, warm analong sound. But in the digital world you are achieving nothing by pushing the DBs that high, except sucking the life out of your track. You won't really be improving the noise ratio, as the noise floor on a 16bit recording, almost outdated even today, is something like -78 dbfs(?). 24 bit and it drops to around -120dbfs.

Remember that -0 dbs on a digital line is not that same as -0 on a analog. I believe that it would be -18 digital = 0 analog. Meaning you would want your recording to average around -18, with occasional peaks in the -10 range just fine.

Once again, I'm no expert, but I have read extensively on the subject and all the experts pretty much say this same thing.

 

[Chris of Arabia]

I didn't say averaging though. I said with the recorded peaks just touching - that's rather different.

 

[GoDrex]

well I've found that on an overdriven guitar recording, the signal is usually pretty compressed and even. So you're not going to have a huge peaks and valleys. Basically when I record there's no way I'm going to have occasional peaks nearing -3db - so an average of -18 is not going to be peaking anywhere near -3 or probably even -10

 

[Chris of Arabia]

I get the impression this is a long running debate - Input Level for Recording?

Guess we each do what we do and call it quits...

 

[AndyG]

well I've found that on an overdriven guitar recording, the signal is usually pretty compressed and even. So you're not going to have a huge peaks and valleys. Basically when I record there's no way I'm going to have occasional peaks nearing -3db - so an average of -18 is not going to be peaking anywhere near -3 or probably even -10

The world of metering in the world of digital audio can get really confusing, as depending on the software and hardware, ballistics and scale, the levels mean different things.  Yes, in theory 0 dBu = -18dBFS, in terms of proffesional equipment.  However, if, for example, you hit -3dBFS during your recording, as read on a PEAK meter, you aren't going to start losing tons of headroom ... it's just a peak.  -3dB on a VU meter, as an average, is also not bad ... in fact it is quite healthy.

All this to say that most "prosumer" recording software's meters are just pretty lights to look at.  In fact, most of them are calibrated to hit the "red" at about -6dbFS, so you actually still do have headroom.

 

[WMHOLP]

It's interesting that nobody has mentioned the master / summed output level.  Preventing clipping by properly setting the trim level on the recording track is one thing; but the summed output at mixdown is quite another.  You can still clip the master output if all the individual tracks are in the green, and you set your fader levels on the tracks too high.  Just my .02 cents.  I have more experience with live sound anyway, but the same principal applies to setting gain structures for recording.  As for a compressor/peak limiter on a channel, I'd personally avoid that for recording.  Live, I may have a compressor on a singer that has a huge dynamic range, but I prefer to record everything dry, and add any needed effects later.  Compressors can really screw up things if not used properly.  They're great for controlling peaks, but they do reduce your dynamic range.  I use them very sparingly.

 

[TroubledTreble]

Here is a screen shot. Nothing spectacular or strange.

<a href="http://s123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/TroubledTreble/?action=view&current=Sonar-1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/TroubledTreble/Sonar-1.jpg" border="0" alt="sonar"></a>

 

[tfarny]

I've done lots of recordings with Sonar and the toneport. I would check to make sure you're not getting digital clipping, which sounds absolutely terrible. I had a similar issue when using my amp's headphone / line out into the toneport and bypassing the toneport's software - I had to turn the amp really low to avoid clipping issues.