really soft out of phase sound..

[latido]

Hi guys,

Just got my warmoth strat setup. but did not know how to make pos 2 and 4 sound as loud as 1,3 and 5?
esp. with my neck on mod, when I turn on all 3 pickups the sound is really weak.

my pickups are

Neck: Dimarzio Cruiser Bridge
Middle: Dimarzio Area 57
Bridge: Seymour Duncan P-Rails Hot

Thanks guys.
latido

 

[Cagey]

If you intended to wire all those as if they were standard Strat pickups, the middle pickup is probably accidentally out of phase. That would have a cancelling effect on the neck and bridge pickups when in parallel, as they would be in positions 2 and 4. Reverse the hot/gnd on the middle pickup, and see if that doesn't cure it.

 

[latido]

If you intended to wire all those as if they were standard Strat pickups, the middle pickup is probably accidentally out of phase. That would have a cancelling effect on the neck and bridge pickups when in parallel, as they would be in positions 2 and 4. Reverse the hot/gnd on the middle pickup, and see if that doesn't cure it.

Thanks man. I've tried it and the output is now bigger. But it's not the same strat 2 & 4 position sound right?

Anyway that I can still have that out of phase tone without dropping the output?

Thanks!!

 

[Cagey]

Not really. You could put it back the way it was, then put resistors in series with the neck and bridge pickups to limit their output when selected singly. Then, all positions would be at roughly the same level. But, it would be a lower level overall, which probably isn't desirable. You'd have to amplify it more, which even when using noiseless pickups is going to narrow your S/N ratio.

The problem is that you're using three humbuckers, whereas on a standard Strat you have three single coils, with the middle pickup being reverse-wound and reverse polarity. That has different effects when you're noise cancelling or running in parallel. With the humbuckers, putting one out of phase with another while in parallel causes their outputs to cancel each other. The only reason you got any output at all that way is the pickups are slightly different and are in different physical locations, so the signals weren't identical and couldn't cancel each other out completely. But, what was left wasn't very useful.

With single coils, the middle pickup is reverse-wound/reverse polarity, so putting it in parallel with the neck or bridge pickup is a natural phase inversion that tends to cancel common signals rather than differentials. So, you get a bit of noise cancellation and a sort of comb filter effect on the signal. That's where that "quack" comes from. It almost acts like a bandpass or notch filter, depending on how you look at it.

I think that may be part of the argument that says "noiseless single coils" (which are actually just reconfigured humbuckers) don't really sound like single coils. Well, the latest and greatest ones sound remarkably close, but they won't behave the same way single coils do in a standard Strat setup when you try to do what you're doing. But, that's not necessarily a Bad Thing. It's just different.

One thing that might be worth investigating is the Bill Lawrence "Q Filter". It's an LCR network built into a little 1" sq. block that you put in place of the capacitor on your guitar's tone control.

I've not used one so I can't say exactly how it behaves, but those who have are usually pleased. They're a little more expensive than your typical tone cap at $24, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't suppose that's a great deal of money.

 

[drewfx]

Not sure if you know this, but if you're thinking the 2 and 4 positions on a Strat are (supposed to be) wired out of phase, that's incorrect. Though people often refer to the classic Strat 2&4 sounds as "out of phase" the PU's are actually wired in phase. Any phase cancellation is due to the PU's picking up up the string at different points, not the wiring.

 

[latido]

Not really. You could put it back the way it was, then put resistors in series with the neck and bridge pickups to limit their output when selected singly. Then, all positions would be at roughly the same level. But, it would be a lower level overall, which probably isn't desirable. You'd have to amplify it more, which even when using noiseless pickups is going to narrow your S/N ratio.

The problem is that you're using three humbuckers, whereas on a standard Strat you have three single coils, with the middle pickup being reverse-wound and reverse polarity. That has different effects when you're noise cancelling or running in parallel. With the humbuckers, putting one out of phase with another while in parallel causes their outputs to cancel each other. The only reason you got any output at all that way is the pickups are slightly different and are in different physical locations, so the signals weren't identical and couldn't cancel each other out completely. But, what was left wasn't very useful.

With single coils, the middle pickup is reverse-wound/reverse polarity, so putting it in parallel with the neck or bridge pickup is a natural phase inversion that tends to cancel common signals rather than differentials. So, you get a bit of noise cancellation and a sort of comb filter effect on the signal. That's where that "quack" comes from. It almost acts like a bandpass or notch filter, depending on how you look at it.

I think that may be part of the argument that says "noiseless single coils" (which are actually just reconfigured humbuckers) don't really sound like single coils. Well, the latest and greatest ones sound remarkably close, but they won't behave the same way single coils do in a standard Strat setup when you try to do what you're doing. But, that's not necessarily a Bad Thing. It's just different.

One thing that might be worth investigating is the Bill Lawrence "Q Filter". It's an LCR network built into a little 1" sq. block that you put in place of the capacitor on your guitar's tone control.

I've not used one so I can't say exactly how it behaves, but those who have are usually pleased. They're a little more expensive than your typical tone cap at $24, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't suppose that's a great deal of money.

Lots of info and details, thanks a lot!!

I remember I wired the pickups according to the diagram (with pictures not exactly a schem i guess..) from dimarzio website.

now my question is am I wiring it in parallel or series? in theory series means one pickup after another in chain? parallel means....??

if they are all wired directly to the switch does it mean they are supposed in parallel since they are not chained together??

I tried to google it a bit but I cant really understand from those passage.. ??? ??? ???

 

[latido]

Thanks!

so do u mean strats are wired in phase but physically flip the middle pickup for that sound? sorry this might be dumb to ask......

Not sure if you know this, but if you're thinking the 2 and 4 positions on a Strat are (supposed to be) wired out of phase, that's incorrect. Though people often refer to the classic Strat 2&4 sounds as "out of phase" the PU's are actually wired in phase. Any phase cancellation is due to the PU's picking up up the string at different points, not the wiring.

 

[Cagey]

now my question is am I wiring it in parallel or series? in theory series means one pickup after another in chain? parallel means....??

if they are all wired directly to the switch does it mean they are supposed in parallel since they are not chained together??

Can't tell how you're wiring it. But, yes, "in series" means one pickup after another in a chain, so to speak. There are different ways of doing that, though. You can connect the common of one to the hot of the other, or the common of one to the common of the other. You can also have the same or two different polarity magnets. Depending how you do all that, you end up with different sounds, and some of them will be "humbucking", or noiseless.

Parallel means you wire the hot to hot and common to common, and you may or may not have reversed magnets.

It doesn't matter what you hook it to after the fact, although you can run those wires individually through things like switches to change configurations around on the fly. Some guys like to swap phasing and series/parallel connections around to get different tones. In the grand scheme of things, most of that sort of thing is a waste of time and an unnecessary complication. You rarely see pros playing those sorts of games. It's usually the very young, inexperienced guys who feel like they're missing out on something if they don't have every wiring combination possible via a confusing array of knobs and switches.

 

[drewfx]

Thanks!

so do u mean strats are wired in phase but physically flip the middle pickup for that sound? sorry this might be dumb to ask......

Not sure if you know this, but if you're thinking the 2 and 4 positions on a Strat are (supposed to be) wired out of phase, that's incorrect. Though people often refer to the classic Strat 2&4 sounds as "out of phase" the PU's are actually wired in phase. Any phase cancellation is due to the PU's picking up up the string at different points, not the wiring.

No, you don't need to do anything except have Strat style PU's in the location they are on a Strat. The phase cancellation is caused by the 2 PU's picking up the string at 2 different locations.

This picture shows how a string vibrates at it's fundamental frequency and at various overtones:

If one PU is picking up an overtone frequency when it's vibrating in one direction while the other PU is picking up the same frequency going in the opposite direction, the 2 PU's will cancel at that frequency. The spacing between the 2 PU's is what determines which frequencies the two PU's will add or cancel at.

 

[reluctant-builder]

I remember I wired the pickups according to the diagram (with pictures not exactly a schem i guess..) from dimarzio website.

Way back in the day, I bought a Seymour Duncan "Classic Stack" for my Stratocaster's bridge position, because I thought I wanted a humbucker and I didn't have money enough for a new guitar. When I wired it in, following the rather anemic, black and white diagram provided in the box (the diagram was probably 3 x 2 inches), I got nothing but the faintest, softest of sounds when the pickup was selected.

I had no idea why it didn't work. I checked and rechecked how I'd soldered the wires and it jibed with the diagram, but it simply didn't work ... so I desoldered it, put back the original pickup and had a playable guitar again. The Internet wasn't as replete with wiring help back then, so I really had no recourse but to scratch my head.

Now, though, I'm willing to bet I needed to reverse the hot and ground wires. Just an inference based on a modicum of additional knowledge gleaned from recently stumbling around for more wiring information.