Rasmus by SUHR

[bagman67]

you know around here in Southern Ca. we consider Lake Elsinore and just about everything about it the DREGS OF THE WORLD. Nothing but meth heads and welfare recipients.. How could they make a quality guitar there?

WTF?!?! Are you serious? It's not the meth heads are the ones building the guitars. And welfare recipients, really? Just because a person needs some help doesn't make them worthless or a loser or disqualify them from being a good guitar builder (or whatever the hell your pompus judgemental high and mighty comments were implying). For you to make a comment like that shows your effed up mentality. The guitars are awesome and the community where they are built really isn't even a relevant factor in the quality of the product. :dontknow:

Without really wanting to inflame this portion of the conversation further, there are welfare recipients and meth heads in Puyallup, too.  And I'm a former welfare recipient - through my mom, who proceeded to move off welfare to become a career police officer, and who raised five of us as a single mom to eventually graduate from college (with two graduate degrees among us as well).  Welfare is not the equivalent of moral failure, and it is not an automatic indicator that its recipient is slothful or a criminal.

The only accurate judgment you can make about folks who don't have enough money is that they don't have enough money.

Now, as to the Rasmus guitar:  It's regrettable, but true, that American corporate profit-seeking, coupled with government economic policies, coupled with the unions' rapacious demands for concessions from employers, and finally coupled with China's willingness to do it for less, are at the root of why these guitars are built in China instead of Lake Elsinore. 

I bet they're really nice axes, though.

Bagman

 

[OzziePete]

Now, as to the Rasmus guitar:  It's regrettable, but true, that American corporate profit-seeking, coupled with government economic policies, coupled with the unions' rapacious demands for concessions from employers, and finally coupled with China's willingness to do it for less, are at the root of why these guitars are built in China instead of Lake Elsinore.  

I bet they're really nice axes, though.

Bagman

The real question I find myself going back to on this Rasmus venture is WHY?  :dontknow:

As I mentioned earlier, Suhr have a decent rep as a custom guitar builder, some damn fine instruments and they are seeking to go 'downmarket' to capture more customers. A number of those people will continue playing guitar and will end up looking at builders like Suhr for their first pro level guitar, and the reputation is already there so it's not like Suhr has to make the connection. Street cred is already established.

Which leaves me thinking they want to make a larger company and take on the Epiphones, Squiers and co. at that level, but on a smaller scale. That part of the market is quite distinct from the upper end they have been operating in, and the issue of QC looms large. If the QC gets sloppy, this will lead to longer delivery times if Suhr are serious about maintaining a good level of product quality as the errors are fixed before the guitar ships.

To me, it is as questionable as Suhr suddenly wanting to manufacture brass and woodwind instruments.. :icon_scratch:

 

[SustainerPlayer]

"Plek fret-leveling job, final set-up and QC check in the Suhr Factory in Lake Elsinore, California"

http://www.rasmusguitars.com/

 

[Disco Scottie]

Now, as to the Rasmus guitar:  It's regrettable, but true, that American corporate profit-seeking, coupled with government economic policies, coupled with the unions' rapacious demands for concessions from employers, and finally coupled with China's willingness to do it for less, are at the root of why these guitars are built in China instead of Lake Elsinore.  

I bet they're really nice axes, though.

Bagman

The real question I find myself going back to on this Rasmus venture is WHY?  :dontknow:

As I mentioned earlier, Suhr have a decent rep as a custom guitar builder, some damn fine instruments and they are seeking to go 'downmarket' to capture more customers. A number of those people will continue playing guitar and will end up looking at builders like Suhr for their first pro level guitar, and the reputation is already there so it's not like Suhr has to make the connection. Street cred is already established.

Which leaves me thinking they want to make a larger company and take on the Epiphones, Squiers and co. at that level, but on a smaller scale. That part of the market is quite distinct from the upper end they have been operating in, and the issue of QC looms large. If the QC gets sloppy, this will lead to longer delivery times if Suhr are serious about maintaining a good level of product quality as the errors are fixed before the guitar ships.

To me, it is as questionable as Suhr suddenly wanting to manufacture brass and woodwind instruments.. :icon_scratch:

A company that makes guitars, decides to make some cheaper guitars. How is that in any way akin to a guitar company deciding to make brass/woodwind instruments? I think you're overreaching there.

Seems pretty simple to me... Suhr is in business to make money, and they see an opportunity to do so with this new line. It's also pretty clear they're not trying to usurp the cheap Fenders or Gibsons, rather they're offering a lower price point to get into the world of Suhr. I would bet a fair amount of Rasmus sales will be to players who already own a Suhr. I'm certainly interested in getting one.

Regarding the QC, you're offering up a worst-case scenario. Let's give them a chance to make this happen before we tear it apart with problems that don't exist yet.

 

[OzziePete]

"Plek fret-leveling job, final set-up and QC check in the Suhr Factory in Lake Elsinore, California"

http://www.rasmusguitars.com/

I saw that........ which may mean -  in a  worst case scenario - that shipment of guitars coming from China may require alot of finishing work at the US Factory before they are shipped. But Suhr have based this project upon the labour being mostly done overseas in order to keep the cost to customer down. If this final work exceeds what they budgetted for in labour hours, that will eat into the profit they have planned. A couple of bad batches of work and suddenly the profit doesn't look so good.

A company that makes guitars, decides to make some cheaper guitars. How is that in any way akin to a guitar company deciding to make brass/woodwind instruments? I think you're overreaching there.

Seems pretty simple to me... Suhr is in business to make money, and they see an opportunity to do so with this new line. It's also pretty clear they're not trying to usurp the cheap Fenders or Gibsons, rather they're offering a lower price point to get into the world of Suhr. I would bet a fair amount of Rasmus sales will be to players who already own a Suhr. I'm certainly interested in getting one.

Regarding the QC, you're offering up a worst-case scenario. Let's give them a chance to make this happen before we tear it apart with problems that don't exist yet.

You are right Disco, I am over reaching the comparisons and being negative in some assumptions here. But others are being overly optimistic about the venture, posting quotes from endorsed artists and senior employees of Suhr as some sort of review of these products (& it looks like an infomercial with all the fruity language), or assuming that because it's Suhr involved all will be well,  and someone has to play Devil's Advocate here! :icon_thumright:

Doing business in China is not all beer and skittles. There are problems. Unexpected ones too.

Any business has an object to make money that is for sure, but Suhr's way of achieving that to date has been to build/craft some very fine guitars at a premium price, to change into a different market of guitar manufacture could be argued as being in different world to the one they have been operating in, hence the brass and woodwind correlation.

While everyone on various forums has been keen to put the boot into Behringer gear for it being manufactured in China at a cheap price and citing all sorts of exploitation going on etc., Suhr's venture into China seems to be getting a velvet glove reception?

 

[Cagey]

That's too much by half for a Chinese guitar. Agile makes better guitars than Gibson in S. Korea, sells them for $400, and they, the shipping company and their US distributor still make money on them. Who does Rasmus think they are, Gibson?

 

[Disco Scottie]

While everyone on various forums has been keen to put the boot into Behringer gear for it being manufactured in China at a cheap price and citing all sorts of exploitation going on etc., Suhr's venture into China seems to be getting a velvet glove reception?

For me personally, I'm putting faith into them finding the best Chinese manufacturer possible. Not everything made there is junk... most if not all of Apple's product line comes from there, for example. I have a feeling Behringer's level of commitment to quality is just a tad below that of Suhr. If it turns out most of the Rasmuses (Rasmi?) have manufacturing problems, then we can compare the two.

 

[Cagey]

While everyone on various forums has been keen to put the boot into Behringer gear for it being manufactured in China at a cheap price and citing all sorts of exploitation going on etc., Suhr's venture into China seems to be getting a velvet glove reception?

For me personally, I'm putting faith into them finding the best Chinese manufacturer possible. Not everything made there is junk... most if not all of Apple's product line comes from there, for example. I have a feeling Behringer's level of commitment to quality is just a tad below that of Suhr. If it turns out most of the Rasmuses (Rasmi?) have manufacturing problems, then we can compare the two.

I think the stigma attached to Chinese manufacturing is largely overblown. As you say, many products considered to be the cream of the crop come from there. It's not only Apple, Dell is mostly Chinese, as is Lenovo. In fact, Dell spends nearly as much in China as Walmart, on the order of $18B/yr.

 

[Jusatele]

you know around here in Southern Ca. we consider Lake Elsinore and just about everything about it the DREGS OF THE WORLD. Nothing but meth heads and welfare recipients.. How could they make a quality guitar there?

WTF?!?! Are you serious? It's not the meth heads are the ones building the guitars. And welfare recipients, really? Just because a person needs some help doesn't make them worthless or a loser or disqualify them from being a good guitar builder (or whatever the hell your pompus judgemental high and mighty comments were implying). For you to make a comment like that shows your effed up mentality. The guitars are awesome and the community where they are built really isn't even a relevant factor in the quality of the product. :dontknow:

Without really wanting to inflame this portion of the conversation further, there are welfare recipients and meth heads in Puyallup, too.  And I'm a former welfare recipient - through my mom, who proceeded to move off welfare to become a career police officer, and who raised five of us as a single mom to eventually graduate from college (with two graduate degrees among us as well).  Welfare is not the equivalent of moral failure, and it is not an automatic indicator that its recipient is slothful or a criminal.

The only accurate judgment you can make about folks who don't have enough money is that they don't have enough money.

Now, as to the Rasmus guitar:  It's regrettable, but true, that American corporate profit-seeking, coupled with government economic policies, coupled with the unions' rapacious demands for concessions from employers, and finally coupled with China's willingness to do it for less, are at the root of why these guitars are built in China instead of Lake Elsinore.  

I bet they're really nice axes, though.

Bagman

I was just noting the IRONY in it all, Not just that they could not make a great guitar, I like the line of guitars

One thing I have learned about Chinese made goods is it is not the worker, If trained and given time he will turn out a quality product. We are overridden with cheap Chinese product I agree, and I think that makes us prejudiced against all Chinese products. However the problem is not with the Chinese worker, he is turning out the product he is instructed to, and those instructions come from the owner of the brand it is sold under. We find out that the specs come companies that are not Chinese because they want a cheaper product to compete against other cheap product DEMANDED by ourselves. WE the buying public are the fault in the end. That is why so many companies do have lines still made in the good ole USA, because some of the public demand good quality well built product made over here. Do not blame unions or government, blame the mindset of every one in America wanting the most bang for the buck.
Brands Like Fender do not try to compete price point with the American Deluxe or the Custom shop stuff, you buy it or you buy a cheaper line, sadly made out of the country, and there are many a profitable boutique manufacturers who make all their product over here. However, in the drive to sell more product even marks like PRS have released a cheap foreign built line, But I can put my Custom 22 next to a SE and you would be hard pressed to see they are made by the same company.
Remember when Japanese products were looked down upon, but now 50 years later they are top of the line. Korean cars were a joke 25 years ago and now I see Hundias all over the place, not just econoboxes either, China will develop and have the same woes as we do some day as their labor out prices itself. I only hope we survive as a top economy when that happens. I fear that with the size of the populace of that country our economy my suffer many more years of this recession than we want to go through and have long lasting results.

 

[OzziePete]

you know around here in Southern Ca. we consider Lake Elsinore and just about everything about it the DREGS OF THE WORLD. Nothing but meth heads and welfare recipients.. How could they make a quality guitar there?

WTF?!?! Are you serious? It's not the meth heads are the ones building the guitars. And welfare recipients, really? Just because a person needs some help doesn't make them worthless or a loser or disqualify them from being a good guitar builder (or whatever the hell your pompus judgemental high and mighty comments were implying). For you to make a comment like that shows your effed up mentality. The guitars are awesome and the community where they are built really isn't even a relevant factor in the quality of the product. :dontknow:

Without really wanting to inflame this portion of the conversation further, there are welfare recipients and meth heads in Puyallup, too.  And I'm a former welfare recipient - through my mom, who proceeded to move off welfare to become a career police officer, and who raised five of us as a single mom to eventually graduate from college (with two graduate degrees among us as well).  Welfare is not the equivalent of moral failure, and it is not an automatic indicator that its recipient is slothful or a criminal.

The only accurate judgment you can make about folks who don't have enough money is that they don't have enough money.

Now, as to the Rasmus guitar:  It's regrettable, but true, that American corporate profit-seeking, coupled with government economic policies, coupled with the unions' rapacious demands for concessions from employers, and finally coupled with China's willingness to do it for less, are at the root of why these guitars are built in China instead of Lake Elsinore.  

I bet they're really nice axes, though.

Bagman

I was just noting the IRONY in it all, Not just that they could not make a great guitar, I like the line of guitars

One thing I have learned about Chinese made goods is it is not the worker, If trained and given time he will turn out a quality product. We are overridden with cheap Chinese product I agree, and I think that makes us prejudiced against all Chinese products. However the problem is not with the Chinese worker, he is turning out the product he is instructed to, and those instructions come from the owner of the brand it is sold under. We find out that the specs come companies that are not Chinese because they want a cheaper product to compete against other cheap product DEMANDED by ourselves. WE the buying public are the fault in the end. That is why so many companies do have lines still made in the good ole USA, because some of the public demand good quality well built product made over here. Do not blame unions or government, blame the mindset of every one in America wanting the most bang for the buck.
Brands Like Fender do not try to compete price point with the American Deluxe or the Custom shop stuff, you buy it or you buy a cheaper line, sadly made out of the country, and there are many a profitable boutique manufacturers who make all their product over here. However, in the drive to sell more product even marks like PRS have released a cheap foreign built line, But I can put my Custom 22 next to a SE and you would be hard pressed to see they are made by the same company.
Remember when Japanese products were looked down upon, but now 50 years later they are top of the line. Korean cars were a joke 25 years ago and now I see Hundias all over the place, not just econoboxes either, China will develop and have the same woes as we do some day as their labor out prices itself. I only hope we survive as a top economy when that happens. I fear that with the size of the populace of that country our economy my suffer many more years of this recession than we want to go through and have long lasting results.

Good summation Justaa.....By your reckoning then, after China moves up the QC ladder and their products become more quality driven than price made, the next frontiers will be SE Asia (Indonesia, Vietnam) then over to India then maybe Africa?

 

[Jusatele]

It is the future as we can see it I think

Not wanting to go into a huge political debate let us just say, our personal greed is what will drive it to happen.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Yes.

In 2010, China had the world's 2nd largest economy.  In 1890, China had the world's 2nd largest economy.  In many ways and places they are a 3rd world country.  The water isn't safe to drink in some areas, and many places don't have running water, let alone hot water.  Things that are made in China, regardless of the quality, are made cheaply.  Working in a Chinese factory is not a good job.  If they had an OSHA, an EPA, a defined work week, a minumum liveable wage, and so on, just some of the things the Western World has, it wood not be cheap to produce things there.  Sweat shops didn't stop when the Kathy Lee scandal happened.  FWIW, the standard of Chinese metal is crap.

But, IMO, by Suhr making a cheaper, more affordable line of quality guitars, it cheapens the Suhr name.  The reasoning that they're in business just to make money, well, some companies want to make money and retain the prestige of their name.  Ever seen a Rolls Royce or Bentley equivalent of a Ford Festiva, or a cheap Rickenbacker?  GM's Cadillac line = luxury, and so on.

 

[Jusatele]

Yes Turbo you are correct in all facets of that post

however you will have to admit when China gets all those standards then they will be looking for someplace that does not to do their labor for them, such as we have.

it is a vicious cycle. And those on top can be on bottom real fast.

 

[bagman67]

.By your reckoning then, after China moves up the QC ladder and their products become more quality driven than price made, the next frontiers will be SE Asia (Indonesia, Vietnam) then over to India then maybe Africa?

You weren't asking me, but that sounds about right to me, Pete - Africa's pretty much always last in line.  Maybe some of the Latin American countries will come in ahead of some of the African ones, but basically, yeah.

Bagman

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

Like always, there's rumors of tariffs to slow, or raise the cost of, Chinese production to make it less desireable for companies to outsource.  Believe it when it happens though.  Not to mention, if that switch were suddenly flipped, we'd be without a lot of stuff for awhile.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

The cycle will return when some time in the future Asia and Africa outsources their production to the USA.  :icon_jokercolor:

 

[m4rk0]

The cycle will return when some time in the future Asia and Africa outsources their production to the USA.  :icon_jokercolor:

this is when the Mexicans have the option to purchase a budget 'made in the USA' fender!

 

[Cagey]

If the Mexicans could afford to buy anything they wouldn't be crawling across the desert and risking death to leave Mexico by the millions so they can work here for $20/day picking tomatoes and cantalopes.

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

It's my observation that "the way it used to be" was different at the time than the way it used to be before that.  Change is the only constant.  The U.S. is no longer and a nation of manufacturing, but rather in maintenance mode now.  As China grows, if they grow like us, they will follow the same path - outsourcing.  The experts say, and you know how I feel about experts - they're seldom correct, that China can't sustain a large middle class.  I forget why. 

 

[Cagey]

The experts say, and you know how I feel about experts - they're seldom correct, that China can't sustain a large middle class.  I forget why.   

Some quick math will tell you. The US has a population of 300M people, and uses roughly 25% of the world's resources. China has over 4 times that population at 1.3B. If they had the same socio-economic spread we do, they'd need more than 100% of the world's resources to maintain it. Since you can't have more than 100%, they're in the hole to begin with, even assuming the entire balance of the planet's population goes away.