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Pickups: An Open Question

B3Guy

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Ok, Guys, sorry if this is impossible to answer, but . . . I am so confused by all the different pickup types. Tele pickups, Strat Pickups, PAFs, Mini-hums, P90s, TV Jones.

Could I get a crash course in the differences of all these? For example, what is the difference between a tele and strat pup in the neck? Between a Hum and a mini-Hum? Between a Hum and a TV? Between Fender's single coils and P90s?  :tard:
 
sweet. I'm a chevy man too, but mine is a car.  :icon_thumright:

guitar pup info, anyone?
 
Actually, they're all more the same than they are different. Tele, Strat, and P90s are all usually single coil pickups, and the rest are dual-coil (humbucking). Single coil pickups are usually clearer, and have a wider frequency response than humbuckers, but that's not always true. Some modern humbuckers are stacked coils vs. side-by-side, so they don't suffer the phase cancellation and augmentation traditional 'buckers do. Not that there's anything wrong with that; it's just a different sound. Humbuckers also usually have higher ouputs than single coils, due to the way they're typically wired (in series).

The number of winds of wire, the strength and metallurgy of the magnets, the orientation, shape and metallurgy of the pole pieces will all affect how the pickup behaves. As a result, there are many hundreds, if not thousands of pickups available. They take different physical forms as far as size and mounting scheme, which is more what they're talking about when they say "Strat" vs. "Tele" vs. "P90", etc.

Beyond that, it's difficult to predict with any accuracy what a given pickup is going to sound like. Most packaging schemes can be had in a variety of electrical/mechanical designs, so to say something is a "Strat" pickup doesn't really tell you much beyond its mounting scheme and physical dimensions. Same with the rest of them.

That probably doesn't answer your question, but believe me, even guys that have been doing this for years have to ask the same thing since nothing is a given any more. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Best you can hope for is to ask around to get people's personal experience with anything that catches your eye.
 
I couldn't of said it better myself.  It is a crapshoot choosing pickups, I often go by a number of reviews about a pickup before buying it to see if  it is something I am looking for or worth trying in the first place.  Although they are all simillar all the little variables that go into a pickup make them all sound a little different.  I also as personal rule always use the same brand throughout the same guitar.  That seems to keep the audio level somewhat the same as well as not running into any compatibility problems, and different wiring codes.  The only pickups that I know of that are very different than the rest are the Lace Alumitone pup's.  Typical pickups are designed to drive the signal out as a voltage, but the Alumitones are designed to output the signal as current.  Either way voltage always has a current depending on resistance and vice versa, so the end result is similar.
 
there is a good book
Pickups, Windings and Magnets
it goes in depth about pickups and the sound of each design, what effect the sound, and on and on
tells the history and such
It is a good read and you will realize they are so difficult to nail down a good solid answer
Basically, single coils are brighter and thinner sounding and humbuckers are fatter and not so bright. But then......
And in the 2 types mentioned above are different types according to how they are built.
I know this is not what you wanted to hear but pickups are just that. not what you wanted to hear till you find the right one
 
the problem with defining is you generalize and that only works with typical traditional examples, now there are pickups tat resemble traditional construction but vary widely in specifications but ill do my best to get the traditional examples in.

the difference between a strat neck and a tele neck is minimal, i have heard that telecasters where wound with 43 gage(thinner) wire vs 42gage but i have also heard that's not true. basically telecasters traditionally have a cover and strats dont. the cover if it is brass will mellow it out ever so slightly because of eddy currents (electrical currents induced within the metal in a loop basically shorted on itself, electro magnetic energy is lost to a slight amount of heat generated), but if it is nickel will have almost no effect at all. i dont remember what material covers telecasters traditionally have. tests by gibson show only a very small measureable effects even using brass covers, yet the myth is perpetuated, well not really a myth, just a small difference that wont make or break your sound.

traditional fender pup's use rod magnets, that is that the pole pieces are magnetic, they have a narrower magnetic field and pull on a smaller point on the string and with more force, they can create a harmomic  and hinder sustain if placed too close.

p-90's and some modern single coil pickups have bar magnets. the pole pieces are a ferromagnetic material but are not permanant magnets, the material can vary and the permeability(ability to become magnetic based on the magnetic field it is exposed to, more or less) of the material will influence the inductance. the magnets are mounted 90 degrees to the pole pieces. the shorter wider coil shape also influences the coil characteristics. the pickups often have a strong midrange and alot of output, more or less a big sound but can also be quite bright if wound with less windings and/or have harder less permeable pole pieces

telecaster bridge pickups are often wound hot or maybe wound with 43gage wire, the impedance is often high. the pole pieces are permanant rod magnets and the pickup has an iron base plate often confused with being brass because it is copper plated on the bottom to make it easy to solder to. the base plate widens the magnetic field. the close proximity to the bridge on the treble side gives it some of it's twang and increases the harmonic content, or it might be better described as reducing the strength of the fundamental.

gibson humbuckers have one row of round pole pieces and one row of screw type pole pieces. the different pole pieces give slightly different characteristics, this may have a slight benefit on the phase cancellation effect of having two coils pickup the sound at different points. tey use a single bar magnet 90 degrees to the pole pieces so that one set of poles is north and one set is south, the coils are traditionally wound in the same direction but the polarity of one coil is switched. the coils are wound in series and may have different impedance do to manufacturing inconsistencies. modern interperatations may have 3 magnets two facing the outside of the pickup and/or two rows of adjustable pole pieces and often use harder socket hex head (allen) poles screws. variations on sound are almost endless

mini humbuckers are much like humbuckers but fit into a p-90 mounting point. most winders seem to stick to traditional impedences but the sound can vary a lot based on pole pieces and magnets. they often sound like a medium between humbuckers and p-90s. they are popular on firebird guitar from gibson

tv jones are much like gibson humbuckers but have a unique look because of there open covers, both rows of pole pieces are adjustable and winders mostly seem to stick to traditional sounds.

there are also fender style humbuckers that are larger than the others. they have 3 adjustable pole pieces on each coil and are wound to sound bright like a fender single coil. the poles are adjustable but unlike the others dont use bar magnets, instead they have rod magnets that have threads ground on them and use copper/nickel/iron magnets instead of aluminum/nickel/cobalt which is the most common type.

many modern bar magnet pickups have ceramic magnets in place of alnico. also alnico can vary in strength and formula. they usually have a number designation that relates to the relative strength. ie alnico 5 is stronger than alnico3 and weaker than alnico 8
stronger magnets pick up more harmonics(brighter) and are louder. weaker magnets arent necessarily darker sounding, but are more mellow.

modern noisless pickups for strat can be rails/blade style or they can be stacked. there are also blade style full size humbuckers, the blade style pickups either single coil size or full size can vary from traditional fender strat sounds to heavy metal distortion sounds. stacked single coils usually emulate fender sounds.  

the best way to pick a pickup would be to try one on a similar rig to your own (the input circuit and the pickup work together to determine the resonant peak and other factors that make up the sound.) then you can decide what you might want to change about it. you really cant work without a reference point because similar looking specs wont translate to a pickup with radically different construction.
 
Thanks, all! Dan, that was helpful, thanks. I understand completely the "try before you buy" factor, but I was just trying to get a general idea of what these pickups traditionally sound like. Jusatele, I'll have to check out that book  :icon_thumright:
 
Excellent history lesson. The only clarification I'd offer is that Seth Lover didn't "aim the phase cancellation to occur around the 60 hertz mark" with his pickup design. It occurs at any frequency, thanks to common mode rejection. Two identical signals of opposite polarity will sum to zero, while any signal without an opposite component makes it through.
 
Cagey said:
Excellent history lesson. The only clarification I'd offer is that Seth Lover didn't "aim the phase cancellation to occur around the 60 hertz mark" with his pickup design. It occurs at any frequency, thanks to common mode rejection. Two identical signals of opposite polarity will sum to zero, while any signal without an opposite component makes it through.

aaand that's how I remove vocals from a song  :icon_thumright: (use Audacity: split stereo audio track. change each separate track to "mono". apply "invert" effect to one. Voila! anything equal in both (usually vocals) will cancel out!)
 
Dan, that is a great answer, but needs a few things pointed out

first, Alnico is a great magnet, and has grade numbers,but those are not a indication of strength linearly. they were numbered as the allows were done, in such a 5 is more powerful than a 2,but a 2 is more powerful than a 3. The number of the alnico alloy is misleading

another point to be made is part of the P90 has a unique magnetic set up as it uses 2 magnets, one on either side of the pole pieces and they are out of phase with each other, both poles facing the polepieces are the same so that they need to be held in place to make sure they do not push apart.

one of the problems with judgeing the strength of a pickup by the magnet stregth is the strength of the magnet has an adverse effect on the string, causeing it to vibrate less when it pulls on it so there needs to be a balance between the strength and position to the string.

A important point is windings,not just the amount, which when calculated with wire guage effects the strength, but also the layout and the tightness and neatness
as far as neat, machine wound and hand wound pickups create unique fields within the windings, very neat windings are considered to "sterile" and some scatter winding done by hand winding is a good thing producing a tonal difference, however to much scatter is bad making the pickup go muddy with to much capacitence. Now how tall the windings are effects the sound, a pickup with tall windings like a strat sized humbucker sounds so much different than a short winding like a regular humbucker, and it goes on.

Seymour duncan is any pickup guys hero, they have done more research into what makes a pickup sound like this and that than anyone else, of course that shows in the depth or the line they sell. I have them in my strat, I also love Lollars, which are hand wound pickups, they are some great pups if not expensive, I have them in my new tele and my PRS, they sing a sweet tune.

Now there are other style magnets than we have mentioned, look at the LACE line, some of those are Butt F(*&ing Ugly but are pushing the envelope as far as pickup technology.
 
Most of what Justa' said, with the exception of the capacitance on the scatter winding.  Very tight overlaid windings have the highest interwinding capacitance - which exists in the theoretical realm, and cannot really be measured.  As each turn is laid perfectly next to its predecessor, what might be termed "dielectric gap" is reduced.  That is, you have only the coated insulation on the wire as the dielectric, and as the (insulated) wire touches its adjacent windings, the tendency is to create capacitor.  Interestingly enough, in my daily work, I have to deal with "linear" capacitors, which are comprised of two wires, with fixed spacing run over very long distances (over a mile). 

The old radiomen knew that there is more to a coil than it being a coil of a certain amount of Henries of inductance, which also could carry X amount of current and have Y amount of impedance.

What was discovered early on, was that the _shape_ of the coil matters.  You can take a coil and wind it tall and skinny, or low and fat.  The inductance, impedance, and wire gauge (for current carrying) are the same.  What differs is a thing called "Q", for "quality factor".  If you were building an RF filter, or audio filter, using a coil, you could adjust the width of the filter to a certain degree by adjusting the shape of the coil. 

The shape of the coil comes into play with guitar pickups as well. 

Justa's explaination of the P90 is incomplete.  There are two magnets and steel poles that run down the center of the pickups (the screws), but this is sort of a means to an end.  What those two magnets do, is to create a certain magnetic circuit which is both concentrated AND disbursed.  That particular design makes a very tight field at the poles, but also creates a wide field surrounding the poles.  A Strat or Tele pickup also has a tight field at the poles (which are themselves magnets) but they lack a great deal of that disbursed field.  The "narrower" the field, the fewer added harmonics present.  Strat and Tele pickups show this with their very tight and focused, brilliant top end.  Taken another way, not only do humbuckers have to coils, but the magnetic circuit is also unique.  There, you have two concentrated fields, with the disbursed field laying between the two.  Lawrence found that he had to use VERY strong side magnets in his super humbucking design, which was created to add brilliance back into the humbucker.  They were not small to make them fit in the existing space.  That was a side benefit.  They were small to keep the fields tight and add as little disbursement as possible.  There is at least one Gibson / Lawrence design that uses no poles in the center of the coils, but a single magnet between the coils (like a rail, but not as we know it today).  I cant remember which guitar or bass it was used on.  It may have been the S1 or Ripper or one of those other "70's" oddballs they were making.

Another factor of coil shape is winding symmetry.  Boutique winders will top load, or bottom load the coils - making the top or bottom fat, while the rest of the coil is tapered.  This also has an effect on tone, and is part of the magic of the boutique winders recipe.

Basically... everything makes for a tone change.  Wire gauge, insulation type and thickness, magnet type and strength, the magnetic circuit, the pole metal, coil shape... all of it and more.
 
damn, I hate it when I get my capacitence backward, thanks CB

and I am sure that like in mine, restraint was made in that post, the science of pickups is really pretty indepth as so much effects the tone.

and then there is personal preference which is a personal taste thing. What you prefer in one you do not like in another, such as in a single coil I love the way the thin sounding ones crack up a tube amp. But in a humbucker I like the fat tone of a more full distortion. Now going with P90s I want just the edge to distort and that warm clean tone only they seem to give to come through, what gives is a strong pickup I can turn down in the guitar pots.

Pickups are fun to play with as it seems each style is different, but yet they are all basically the same, until...............

Have fun experimenting with them, I built a pickup winder when I was a teen and went nuts. However even my best attempts pale to the professionals, but it was fun to experiment and try to figure them out.
 
The first time I ever saw an aftermarket pickup the name Seymour Duncan was on it, I must admit I never tried the brand but it definitely deserves consideration. Awhile back I stumbled across the Seymour Duncan site, its Q&A leaves no stone unturned, to say the least...
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/faq/seymours-q-a/
 
So is our consensus that TV Jones pickups are generally just a "vintage" humbucker that looks different? I've always thought they had a really distinctive sound to them but maybe that's just rig or maybe what was meant is that they've got the same design, just different dimensions, gagues, amounts of wire, etc. Thoughts?
 
well they have many models and dont fit the profile to a t. they dont really have a profile from model to model, different wire gauges, different pole piece designs, different bobbin heights ect.ect. in general the pickups are wound lighter and have lower inductance values as far as i can see on there web site
 
i think they have different bobbins in the neck versions vs bridge version, http://www.tvjones.com/tech_specs/techspecs.html

aybe the meck humbuchers are like pafs but lighter wound, the bridge versions seem to be alot taller but may be wound close to a paf , the website has a lot of specs
 
4.8k? Yeah no wonder they sound different. The hottest power-tron is 8.4 k and the classics hover around 4-5k. That's less than a typical strat pickup, isn't it?
 
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