Pickup polarity, mixing brands here

[Tyrannocaster]

I put together a Warmoth Strat this summer (one tune here: https://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=32385.0) and I've been living with a minor problem that I'm tired of so I'd like to fix it. The guitar has a Kinman HB (Vintage Astound, older version with only 3 wires, not 4) and two no-name single coils. The singles sound great and so does the Kinman. The only problem is that when I split the Kinman to use it with the middle pickup, although I get the proper sound out of the combination, it is not hum cancelling. So something's off, and after poking around online, I found this on Fralin's site (scroll down to #3):


Problem #1:

Both Coils are in the same direction, but the magnet direction is opposite between pickups.

These pickups are out of phase, and when used together, will sound weak, hollow, and thin. A lot of midrange is canceled out.
Problem #2:

Coils in different directions, but the pickups are magnetized the same.

These pickups are out of phase, and when used together, will sound weak, hollow, and thin. A lot of midrange is
canceled out.
Problem #3:

Both Pickups are the same coil direction and magnetic orientation.

These pickups will be in phase, however, they will not be hum-canceling.
-----
From https://www.fralinpickups.com/2017/01/23/whats-deal-polarity/

So it looks like I have problem #3. With the Kinman having only three wires, I don't have too many options, but if I reverse the leads going to the selector switch and the one that grounds the HB's coil to split it (and using the other coil), shouldn't that be enough to fix the problem?

This stuff make my head spin, trying to figure it out.

 

[stratamania]

Kinman offers the three wire for splitting but doesn't recommend it. But why not in the split position try reversing the wiring of the single coil instead.

 

[Tyrannocaster]

When I first installed these pickups I had the single coils reversed from where they are now and I had the awful 1970s Country out-of-phase sound when using the split Kinman and the middle, so I already reversed the single coils, which have to be treated as a pair to retain their proper tone.. My guess: trial and error is going to be the only way to find out if this can work better. If not, I'll just take the Kinman out and use an old SD JB I have instead; totally different style of pickup, of course.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[DuckBaloo]

What kind of switch are you using? Super Switch (4 poles, 5 throws) or the old school 5-way switch (2 poles, 3 throws)? The solutions change depending on the switch.

Do you have a diagram of it currently? I assume you were trying to mix the inner coil of the HB with the middle SC?

 

[stratamania]

Exactly a super switch would give more possibilities.

 

[Tyrannocaster]

A superswitch would give more possibilities, but I don't need more possibilities, just the few right ones. I have other Strats that are happy with a HSS setup, it's just a question of getting the combination right. I have a 5 way switch with a separate mini switch for the HB toggle. Really, the main hassle here is just the fact that with a 22 fret neck you have to take the whole thing apart to get the pickguard off; that's why although I can trial-and-error it, I was hoping somebody could spare me that. T-A-E works, but you have to exhaust all the possibilities.

I am currently using the side of the pickup farthest from the bridge when split. If I swap the wires (going to the other coil in the HB), I will turn the whole thing around to keep that arrangement.

EDIT: it seems to me that if I just use the other side of the HB, I will get hum cancelling, but I will be in the same boat I was originally when I assembled the guitar - out of phase crappy sound. Right now, I have proper quack but hum. I don't want to swap that for hum-free honk. The more I think about this, the more dizzy it makes me! That old JB is looking better and better all the time.

 

[DuckBaloo]

EDIT: it seems to me that if I just use the other side of the HB, I will get hum cancelling, but I will be in the same boat I was originally when I assembled the guitar - out of phase crappy sound. Right now, I have proper quack but hum. I don't want to swap that for hum-free honk. The more I think about this, the more dizzy it makes me! That old JB is looking better and better all the time.

Humcancelling =/= out-of-phase. There are only four possible ways for coils to interact...
[list type=decimal]
[*]
Same-wind/same polarity = in-phase, NOT hum-cancelling
[*]Reverse-wind/same polarity = out-of-phase, hum-cancelling
[*]Same-wind/reverse polarity = out-of-phase, NOT hum-cancelling
[*]Reverse-wind/reverse polarity = in-phase, hum-cancelling
[/list]

The two coils of all humbuckers are, by definition and function, always RW/RP to each other. That means one coil can always be wired to be RW/RP to a Middle SC.

I typed out a longer reply, but first I have to ask another very-important question that may make all of this real easy.

• Are the neck PU and middle PU cancelling when used together (neck/middle position on the switch)? Or they RWRP to each other?

What would really help is a diagram, wire colors, etc. we have no idea if you are merely switching HB coils or reverse the wind of the entire PU.

 

[Tyrannocaster]

Yes, the neck and middle are hum cancelling, and give the proper quack Fender sound. I can't give you a diagram without taking it apart, LOL.

From Lindy Fralin's site:

Problem #3:
Both Pickups are the same coil direction and magnetic orientation.
These pickups will be in phase, however, they will not be hum-canceling.

This would seem to be what I have now when I use the middle pickup with the split Kinman.

i have figured out what seems to be a sensible way to do this: I'm going to wire up another pickguard using the old JB, some custom rewound '73 Strat pickups, a couple of pots, a 5 way switch, and a mini toggle for the HB. Once that's working properly I'll put it in the Warmoth (which I really like and do not want to take out of commission for very long) so I can take the entire Kinman assembly out and mess with it off the guitar. Who knows - it may be that I end up liking the old JB better anyway. The Kinman is a nice pickup; it's bright without being harsh, and it's very quiet in terms of noise. It does not begin to have the balls the JB does, but the JB doesn't begin to have the high end the Kinman has; however, the split JB probably balances the rewound (to Texas Special specs) Fender pickups better.

Should have thought of this sooner.

 

[DuckBaloo]

Yes, the neck and middle are hum cancelling, and give the proper quack Fender sound. I can't give you a diagram without taking it apart, LOL.

Then the answer is easy, just swap the neck and middle pickups!

If ...

• ... the neck SC is RW/RP to the middle SC, and ...
• ... the middle SC is same-wind/same polarity to the Inside (slug) Coil of the HB ...

... then ...

• ... the neck SC must be RW/RP to the Inside (slug) Coil of the HB!

Currently, since you say all your combinations are in phase, your coils have to be (neck to bridge) ...

• RW/RP <humcancelling> "Normal" <NOT cancelling> "Normal" <humcancelling> RW/RP

If you swap the neck and middle PUs, the new order from neck to bridge will be ...

• "Normal" <humcancelling> RW/RP <humcancelling> "Normal" <humcancelling> RW/RP

 

[Tyrannocaster]

I like it! It would give me a little bit different wrap ratio than I usually choose for neck to middle, but that's a good idea, and it hadn't occurred to me. I'm still going to assemble the other pickguard first and then pop it in while the Warmoth is apart, then I can put the Warmoth guard (after swapping those pickups) into my test Strat, which only has a 21 fret neck.

Thank you for the suggestion!

:turtle:

 

[stratamania]

A superswitch would give more possibilities, but I don't need more possibilities, just the few right ones.

Ergo, by having more wiring possibilities that will help you arrive at just the few right ones. You still only have five positions on a super switch.

You could keep your pickups as they are in terms of position and have for example.

1. Bridge Full Humbucker
2. Bridge split with middle with wires swapped in this position only.
3. Middle
4. Middle & neck
5. Neck

Would that be of interest?

If so I probably have a diagram that I did for a Nashville tele set up that had a similar problem that could be easily adapted.

 

[Tyrannocaster]

Thank you. Do you think that DuckBaloo's suggestion will work?

 

[DuckBaloo]

It depends on which coil you want to use on the humbucker.

Most builders wire the use middle+inner/slug coil. For that, you have to swap the neck and middle PU.

If you want to use middle+outer/adjustable coil (usually a brighter but thinner tone), you leave the middle and neck PUs as is.

The HB Hot and Ground wiring needs to stay the same as you have them now...if you swap those, you swap the coil direction of both coils and they'll be out of phase with the other PU's. We control which coil gets shunted by connecting the coil tap to either Ground (bypass the outer coil) or connecting it to Hot (bypasses the inner coil). You may but able to do this with your mini-switch as well, depending on how it is wired.

By using a Super-Switch, with 5 unique throws in each of 4 poles, the sky is the limit, any position of the switch can have a unique coil combination, no matter how simple or how complex (All 3 PUs at once, neck+bridge, multiple PUs in series, etc.)

 

[Tyrannocaster]

Yeah, I don't want the active half to be the one next to the bridge. As it is now, it's the other one and I like the way it sounds, so I'm going to try just swapping the neck and middle. Thank you.

 

[stratamania]

Ok let us know how it goes or if you want any further suggestions...

 

[Tyrannocaster]

The HB Hot and Ground wiring needs to stay the same as you have them now...if you swap those, you swap the coil direction of both coils and they'll be out of phase with the other PU's. We control which coil gets shunted by connecting the coil tap to either Ground (bypass the outer coil) or connecting it to Hot (bypasses the inner coil). You may but able to do this with your mini-switch as well, depending on how it is wired.

DuckBaloo, it works. I found this out in a sort of ironic way. I built up a pickguard with a SD JB in the bridge and two of my '73 Strat rewounds and stuck it on an old Squier test Strat. I used the Duncan wiring which only uses a 5 way switch but gives you the HB, the split HB and middle, middle, middle and neck, and neck (so you do lose split-only bridge, which actually doesn't bother me that much here), and since I know that Fenders after the 50s are wound backwards from Duncans, I reversed the wiring on the Fender pickups. It worked, but had exactly the same symptoms as my Warmoth with the Kinman, LOL. So I flopped the two Fender pickups (and swapped their wires on the switch) and lo and behold: perfect.

These rewound Fender single coils are very good sounding, and we all know what a JB sounds like. I'm going to play this thing for a bit and see what I think. I will have to decide wether I'd rather have this setup in the Warmoth than the Kinman with two no-names. Main difference, of course, is the JB being a much hotter pickup but when split it's about the same value as my Fender middle, which is a bit hot itself.

Thank you again for your help.

 

[Tyrannocaster]

Up-Update: I redid the Warmoth, swapping the neck and middle, and their leads to the switch. Problem solved. I simply cannot think this stuff through, so I really appreciate the help.

Actual photo of me, trying to think this through: