Nylon Stratocaster

[Steve_Karl]

They make ball end nylon strings now.
Fender, Martin, Ernie Ball, even roto sound ...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=ball+end+classical+nylon+site%3Amusiciansfriend.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

[Nando Vallart]

They make ball end nylon strings now.
Fender, Martin, Ernie Ball, even roto sound ...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=ball+end+classical+nylon+site%3Amusiciansfriend.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Thanks, I'll see if they're avaiable here down the south

 

[Steve_Karl]

What do you  ( or anyone ) think about the head stock choice for a build like this ... specifically the difference in the feeling of string stiffness between a warmoth pro angled ( 3 Left 3 right tuners ) as opposed to a strat with 6 on 1 side and no angled head stock?

I'm wondering about the feeling of stiffness of the B and high E.

 

[Steve_Karl]

What do you  ( or anyone ) think about the head stock choice for a build like this ... specifically the difference in the feeling of string stiffness between a warmoth pro angled ( 3 Left 3 right tuners ) as opposed to a strat with 6 on 1 side and no angled head stock?

I'm wondering about the feeling of stiffness of the B and high E.

Bump !!!

Anyone care to just imagine what the differences might be?

Thank you!

Steve

 

[Cagey]

It won't make a difference. You have to get the strings up to a specific tension relative to their mass and scale length in order to get them to vibrate at a given frequency. The distance the string extends past the nut or bridge doesn't change that, so the feel won't change, either.

 

[Dan025]

It won't make a difference. You have to get the strings up to a specific tension relative to their mass and scale length in order to get them to vibrate at a given frequency. The distance the string extends past the nut or bridge doesn't change that, so the feel won't change, either.

well cagey i agree with you but the myth is still ever presant and there is some physics that support it but it seems minor to me. i dont take feel into account when i designing a guitar because i think it is all anecdotal placebo effect nonsense. 

ill explain how it does effect it however small and i think you can follow. while the initial tension is predetermined by physics to be identical that is only like the preload. assuming there is no friction at the nut and bridge saddles the total length of the string is stretched when a string is fretted or bent and the "spring rate" is determined by the total length and the thickness of the string. so the initial pressure needed to bend the string is identical but a longer string past the nut and bridge saddle, as long as it is not binding at the nut and saddle, should gain less pressure as it is bent because it has a lower rate.

the lower rate would be interpreted as a stiffer feel to many players because they use pitch as the reference and the amount you will need to bend the string will be greater meaning you will interfere with adjacent strings more. this means it will take more effort to gain the pitch you want in a bend both because you are fighting the string and the adjacent string harder and because you are using more travel, more travel means that the string gets longer which means more final tension to gain the desired pitch. so will all that a barely measurable difference in rate will add up to a potentially detectable difference in feel. that's all theory and i have read things like that all over the internet and in reputable books but me, i can bend .012's at full pitch on a start without too much effort and i pick my strings according to what gives me a good harmonic balance so i usually flip between .011's and .010's depending on the guitar and how my particular taste is that particular day. i really think people over think the "feel" thing.

but what does that mean for a nylon string? absolutely nothing! you dont do blues bends on a nylon string! well i dont anyway. plus they usually feel pretty slinky even if you like the "hard tension" strings but then again on a longer scale it might throw you off a bit but you could buy gibson and mustang scale length necks as well. 

lesson being focus more on tone and tecnique because if your guitar doesnt "feel right" your hands will adapt in a short time but a good feel can't enhance the tone of the guitar. (i guess that could be argued but it's my oppinion.)

 

[Steve_Karl]

arrrrrr .....

Are you absolutely sure about this? Can you elaborate?
I understand about the tension needed to achieve pitch and how tension is a real world measurement ... but stiffness is a subjective personal perception, and I don't think it can be measured.

I'm not convinced yet either way, and I'm not looking to argue ... I'm really just looking for clarity for myself in this issue, and I'm hoping the shared experiences of others might help.

I'm about to order all the parts to build a nylon strung strat but would like to be able to stay with a strat headstock in order to start allowing me the possibilities of swapping necks with minimal problems


Subjective as it all is ... my real world experience with this has been.

A) My mahogany hard tail strat has string trees for all 6. ( the reason I added them to the Low E and A was to increase the "sensation of stiffness" )
Remove the strings from under the trees and re tune up to pitch. The "physical sensation" of stiffness ( not to be confused with tension ) is decreased on all strings.
Doing this shortens the distance between the termination points.

B) Raising the stop tailpiece on all of my Les Pauls ( I no longer own one but have had 9 or so in the past ) always always produced a sensation of less stiffness. It shortens the distance between termination points.

Granted ... the "perception" of this is very subjective ... but I don't yet know if it's about changing the break angle over the nut and also saddles, in the TOMs case
or it's about the length between the absolute termination points.

This leads me to believe ( and of course beliefs are subjective also ) that the strat neck will fell stiffer on the higher strings.



Also here's an imaginary test model: ( Imaginary because we don't have 25 foot long strings )
Bolt a guitar that uses a TOM to one end oa a 20 foot table with the neck extending over the end.
Remove the stop tailpiece and bolt it to a block of wood on the extreme other end of the table.
String it up and tune to pitch with our imaginary 25 foot strings.

How is it going to feel if we bend a few notes?

 

[Steve_Karl]

the lower rate <snip>

but what does that mean for a nylon string? absolutely nothing! you dont do blues bends on a nylon string! well i dont anyway. plus they usually feel pretty slinky even if you like the "hard tension" strings but then again on a longer scale it might throw you off a bit but you could buy gibson and mustang scale length necks as well.  

lesson being focus more on tone and tecnique because if your guitar doesnt "feel right" your hands will adapt in a short time but a good feel can't enhance the tone of the guitar. (i guess that could be argued but it's my oppinion.)

I can see why you might see it as more minor than I do, switching between 12s and 11s.
When I'm in that kind of transitional mode, which is very rare ( and usually 10s and 9s ) the difference between 2 guitars both with 9s on them become irrelevant.
I'm more about the major difference between to feel of the one with 10s and the one with 9s.
But now, I'm just trying to pick the right neck for the project so I'm into the minute details in my head.

Rate ... good info. and enough to convince me I'm not imagining the whole thing.

Well, even though we don't usually bend nylon there's more to it than bending. How does the pick feel attacking a looser string or even more so,
using raw fingers rather than a pick?
Tone and technique ... yes ... of course and always, but short scale vs long scale necks and tone is something many talk about.

And yes, I know I adapt in a few minutes and get comfortable with a different guitar.

Thanks for the input. Great post!

 

[Dan025]

well i stated opinion and admitted that there is a little difference. it has a bit to do with your preferred setup and the string gauge but you would never calculate the differences to be very great. that's the thing about feel is you can pick up on minor things but i have never played a guitar that i felt there was enough difference that i had a preference. youre experience may differ.

and in my example some might perceive less stiffness or "rate" as more because it actually takes more "work" to bend them to desired pitch. but in the example of simply fretting a note the longer string past the nut will feel slinkier but it will be slight as far as i can tell. now as far as angle it breaks over the nut and bridge, i find that even harder to justify but a greater angle "should" act like a shorter distance because the string will resist moving over it because of friction and because you are bending the string so the stiffness will also resist sliding. it could be argued that the radius of the saddles also effects the feel.

 

[Cagey]

One of these days, somebody's gonna set up a test fixture and some instrumentation and answer this question once and for all.

 

[Dan025]

One of these days, somebody's gonna set up a test fixture and some instrumentation and answer this question once and for all.

i think that's what needs to be done but it will behard to measure the differences, some sensitive equipment is in order`.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Yea. A real scientific test wouldn't be easy.

I think I've made up my mind to go with a strat head stock so that I can swap necks if I want and have less culture shock if I do.
I just need to buy a set of ball end nylon strings and make sure the high e will be long enough.

 

[luthierwaffle]

That's the coolest thing I've ever seen.