Nut height question

tfarny

Master Member
Messages
4,481
Okay, this eventually becomes a question about Warmoth, so bear with me.  Since you guys are so great at giving out free advice, I thought I'd see if anybody wants to help with my 'problem'. I recently put together my first parts guitar (strat style, GFS and mighty mite, I wanted to go cheap the first time out). I had the nut on the mighty mite neck custom made to my specs by a very reputable and famous shop in Santa Monica. I explained that I often play slide and I use a lot of open strings, and that I didn't want a super-low nut that would buzz all the time.  Someone else had worked on the previous neck and cut the nut down without asking me, and that was too low, so I wanted to be clear on this point.  Well, I got it back and it played like melted butter above the 5th fret but the fret buzz on open strings was just ridiculous to my ears. Admittedly the frets are pretty tall on this neck but it's a CUSTOM nut, right? I keep raising the action at the bridge which helps a bit of course but now it plays like crap on the high frets. So, twice I've had professionals work on my nuts (haha, yeah yeah) and both times I've thought they cut it way too low.  So, Is it just me - is there something else I should be explaining?  I posted photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11283369@N07/ . For comparison, I took pics of my '66 Melody Maker which manages to play like butter without any real fret buzz at all.
1.  Is the strat nut too low or am I just being too picky? Is this standard operating procedure for strats - do I need some kind of special instructions for these guys?
2.  If it is SOP, why is my Gibson so perfect?
3.  Are the Warmoth pre-cut nuts this low, or are they closer to the Melody Maker? That will totally determine if I order the pre-cut nut or not.
Told you I'd get to Warmoth eventually.
I appreciate anyone who takes the time to answer this, thanks in advance.
Tim
 
Not sure of the sequence in your post verbiage viz-a-viz the pics in the link, but compared to a couple of Warmoth necks in the house the sting notches look like they're cut kind of deep, but the nut height may have been a bit higher to start with.

I'll save CB a post here by asking what is the nut height and string height at 1st/5th/12th fret???

Bottom line is, if you are paying a "professional" to cut/install a nut, setup and any corresponding bridge adjustment should be included and you shouldn't be experiencing ANY buzzing at any fret.

As to ordering precut nuts from Warmoth, be advised that the nut height is std. Fender spec to the best of my knowledge and the string notches are EXTREMELY shallow; .009 strings will typically come out of the B/E notches when you first assemble the axe and the notches usually need to be deepened based on string gauge/neck radius/bridge as part of final setup.
 
tfarny said:
free advice
Its always worth the price paid!

help with my 'problem'
The Viagra Forum is down the hall, 2nd left (so I've been told)

mighty mite neck.......
Steeeeriiiike ONE!

......very reputable and famous shop in Santa Monica
Steeeeriiike TWO!

professionals work on my nuts
Steeeeriiike THREE!

1.  Is the strat nut too low or am I just being too picky? Is this standard operating procedure for strats - do I need some kind of special instructions for these guys?

If the open string buzzes then the nut is too low.  If the low frets buzz - frets 1 to 5 or so, then there is not enough relief and it needs a truss rod adjustment.


2.  If it is SOP, why is my Gibson so perfect?
Its not, its a Gibson not a Warmoth!

3.  Are the Warmoth pre-cut nuts this low, or are they closer to the Melody Maker? That will totally determine if I order the pre-cut nut or not.
Told you I'd get to Warmoth eventually.
My little bit of foolin' so far says the Warmoth nut is on the high end of acceptable, but probably too low for you.

Go www.frets.com and see how a nut should be fit, and adjusted. 

For action adjustments, always tune to pitch.  Get the relief about .010 at fret 8 when the strings are depressed at fret 1 and 21(or 22).  Set the string elevation to 3.5/64 on the high E and 4.5/64 on the low E and if you have a Strat, use an understring radius gauge to set the middle 4 strings elevation to the curvature of the neck (whatever it might be).

Good luck with the Mighty Mite neck.  You are going to need it.  It is the height of presumption to ask why a Mighty Mite equipped guitar does not play as well as your Gibson.

Keep in mind, if you had a great setup from those guys in Santa Monica, then as soon as you changed string gauges, the setup flies out the window... equally, if your local environment is more/less humid, the setup is gonna shit the bed and die.
 
Thanks Jack. And thanks CB for the humor and frets.com link. Not having measuring tools, I used a set of acoustic strings as calipers. The string height at the nut is just about exactly .042 (the "A" string in a set of Martin SP Lights). The G string is the lowest, just under that number (The "measuring string" catches on the G). String height at the first fret is just a hair over .054 (The Low "E" in my acoustic strings)- since the frets are pretty tall, this is a very close tolerance.  At the 5th, it's about double the 1st fret height but I can't measure it, and at the octave it's like an acoustic that needs a turn on the truss rod - remember I adjusted the string height to remove as much fret buzz as possible already.

What you're saying though, is that no professional setup should buzz at all, yet I know that to some extent it's a matter of player's preference -low action v. some buzzing. In other words, I should take it back and have them redo it. Also, I guess you're saying that the Warmoth nuts often need to be cut deeper, which is reassuring.  Anyone know the string heights on the Warmoth nuts?
Tim
 
Pretty cool player's guitar, isn't it?  It's got a T-Top humbucker, Badass Bridge and Schaller tuners, apparently it got a great upgrade sometime in the 70's. Sounds so awesome, but of course you don't get a lot of sonic variety from it. Classic rock, dirty blues. Truthfully, I bought it on a whim and the neck is narrow for me  (1 5/8 of course). It has the typical cracked and repaired headstock but it's totally not noticeable in playing or tuning. Neck joint looks good. Also the tuners are getting old and they stick a bit. I'm thinking about selling it to finance my Warmoth.  tim dot farnsworth at g mail dot com. Send me an offer and let me know your location.

CB, you're right that comparing a down-market neck to my lovely Gibson isn't really fair, but this particular mighty mite neck is just fine, it's pretty straight with good frets, and it bolted on just perfect.  Ebony on Maple. I'm sure my issue comes from the nut work and not the neck.

Thanks guys for your great advice.
 
My main guitar for 19 years was a '65 Melody Maker made out of the most resonant piece of mahogany ever discovered. Charlie Wirz - Charlie's Guitar Shop in Dallas - sold it to me in late 1981 for $225 as some flake had left it with that unpaid bill for more than a year. The main luthier there, Rene Martinez - left Charlie's to be SRV's guitar tech after he got famous - had routed it out and it had a early 70's Dimarzio PAF at neck and Super Distortion at bridge, with a BadAss bridge and Schaller tuners.

Peghead had been knocked off at least once when I bought it (was walnut except for black sprayed over repair on neck/peghead joint, and the peghead got knocked off three more times during my ownership - American Airlines once, dog knocking it off stand once and in an attempted burglary the thief smacked it on a window frame going out and left it in the mud in two pieces. It got stolen a final time in 2000 from a parked car, never turned back up....
 
tfarny said:
Not having measuring tools, I used a set of acoustic strings as calipers. The string height at the nut is just about exactly .042

If you were to read the piece at frets.com, Frank Ford shows how to do a nut setup.  The very easy method, is to use the frets themselves as a gauge.  Get some good light and maybe a magnifier.  Press the strings at fret 3, sort of close to the fret 2 side tho.  Now look under the string at fret 1.  There should be a very tiny gap there.  Maybe just 1/64 inch or less.  If you have that, your nut is fine.

What you need to do, is measure your neck relief - educated guess.
 
jackthehack said:
My main guitar for 19 years was a '65 Melody Maker made out of the most resonant piece of mahogany ever discovered. Charlie Wirz - Charlie's Guitar Shop in Dallas - sold it to me in late 1981 for $225 as some flake had left it with that unpaid bill for more than a year. The main luthier there, Rene Martinez - left Charlie's to be SRV's guitar tech after he got famous - had routed it out and it had a early 70's Dimarzio PAF at neck and Super Distortion at bridge, with a BadAss bridge and Schaller tuners.

Peghead had been knocked off at least once when I bought it (was walnut except for black sprayed over repair on neck/peghead joint, and the peghead got knocked off three more times during my ownership - American Airlines once, dog knocking it off stand once and in an attempted burglary the thief smacked it on a window frame going out and left it in the mud in two pieces. It got stolen a final time in 2000 from a parked car, never turned back up....

I'll just assume it's nickname wasn't "Lucky".
 
Lucky was the Australian Shepherd that got run over by a Chevy van doing 50mph without a scratch but was later killed by a badger.
 
CB, I read the info at frets.com, thanks for the tip.
with Capo at the third fret, all the strings are touching the 1st fret, no daylight at all, no doubt.  doesn't matter where I put the capo either.  In fact I can see that the nut slots are lower than the first fret, now that I look really closely under good light. Yes I have good eyes. So the nut is too low, even for a normal setup, much less a buzz-freak like me.
Checking relief using the 'spare strings' method (capo 1, finger on 22, checked at 8th fret, right?) I can just about almost get a .012 string in there - it looks like the relief is almost exactly .010. Which means the neck is properly set up, right? It's strung with .010s btw.

Really appreciate the help, both you guys. 
I'm glad my Melody Maker is luckier than that one! Only one headstock crack, and it's pretty minor. But more than $225, too. I think the "T-Top" Pickups go for that much on Ebay.
 
Well, keep in mind that it was 25 years ago when a dollar went a lot further, and that was for reattaching the headstock, routing the body for humbuckers, their install and wiring and replacing the original bridge with a BadAss.

If you've had ANY cracking on a Melody Maker peghead/neck joint you have to baby it with kid gloves; vintage ones are notorious for this and you can finish knocking the head off by simply having it fall from a stand.

I would up doing the repair myself the last two times it happened; never had any tuning or other issues after repeated repairs, but apparently the original break that kept recurring was extremely clean for a break of that sort.
 
I don't have experience with these guitars but i had the same problem once. the nut sounds a bit low for tall frets but it should only buzz at the 1st fret like that. you can shim the nut but first i'd check for a more serious problem as a precautionary measure. check the neck for back bow. if you don't have a strait edge longer that the fret board you can use a string on the guitar. fret the string at the end of the neck and at the first fret. check for a gap under the string at 8th fret. the amount is a players preference but more relief can help a buzz at the low frets. then check for a gap at every other fret. the string should only contact the first and the last frets.
i once had the problems you described  on a friends axe. it had a floyd rose system on it so it couldn't be the nut. i spent days trying to set the action like any of my guitars but the string would buzz now matter how i'd adjust the truss rod. then i noticed that although the neck had ample relief at the 8th fret the strait-edge was resting on the 4th! there was a gap under the 1st fret as big as under the 8th. the neck was warped. nothing i could do except get it close to strait and level the fret tops a bit and then add in some fudge factor and give it plenty of relief.
not trying to scare ya, just giving advice. i hope it all pans out better for ya than it did for me and my friends guitar.
 
Update:
Took it back to the shop, they redid it from scratch, and now it's really great, just perfect. Thanks everybody for the advice, and next time I'll do my own nuts instead of paying 'pros'. I'm learning so much about guitars on this board!
PS - ordered my first warmoth today. I'll post full pics when I get it going, about 4-6 weeks delivery they said.
:guitarplayer2:
 
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