Newbie’s first questions

[Neo Fender]

Can a burst finish be done without spraying?  From what I gather from the Warmoth site, the base color is rubbed in and the final colors are sprayed.  I assume it would be hard to get a subtle variation by rubbing the final dye colors in.

If I futz something up, how much sanding is required to remove the mistake?  I assume the rubbing dye causes it to penetrate quite a bit.

How does alder work with transparent finishes?  I understand that Alder has a more subtle grain than ash or basswood, so it’s usually used with solid finishes.  Just curious as to how it would turn out. 

Thanks.

 

[jackthehack]

"Can a burst finish be done without spraying?  From what I gather from the Warmoth site, the base color is rubbed in and the final colors are sprayed.  I assume it would be hard to get a subtle variation by rubbing the final dye colors in."

I've seen some mention of doing a "dyed burst" using sponges, but haven't seen any pics of such, and experimenting myself with dyes/stains never yielded a desirable result. Be prepared to spray...

"If I futz something up, how much sanding is required to remove the mistake?  I assume the rubbing dye causes it to penetrate quite a bit."

You do not necessarily rub the dye in; usually you wipe back excess dye or stain with a cloth as you apply it. Depth of penetration is dependant on what wood you're using; you can always sand it back, using a palm sander it doesn't take a lot of time, but it's best to try to avoid issues around neck pocket/edges that you have to sand back by hand, that can take some work.

"How does alder work with transparent finishes?  I understand that Alder has a more subtle grain than ash or basswood, so it’s usually used with solid finishes.  Just curious as to how it would turn out. "

Alder works well with transparent finishes; it has a TIGHTER grain so little or no grain filling is necessary; usually you can "fill" by applying 3-4 coats of sanding sealers.

Exactly what kind of burst finish did you have in mind? Is this for a solid alder body, or will it have a laminate top?

 

[Neo Fender]

I was thinking of trying a blueburst.  I’m looking at alder to avoid the cost of a maple top but it may look too bland.  Do sanding sealers cover up the grain much?

Exactly what kind of burst finish did you have in mind? Is this for a solid alder body, or will it have a laminate top?

 

[bpmorton777]

I dont think that you totaly need a maple top for a nice looking guitar. Check out Tonar8353's stuff in the strat and tele sections. He uses plain alder and ash for the bodys and they look killer.

Brian

 

[-CB-]

Spraying - using even aerosols is not that big of a deal, IF you have a good aerosol.

 

[jackthehack]

Sanding sealer is clear, won't cover the grain up a bit.

If you don't want to spend the money on a higher end top on your first project, swamp ash might be a better choice for what it sound like you want to do. Alder has very tight grain that won't really take filler to speak of to darken it; you could dye it black and sand it back, but it might be a lot easier to find a swap ash body that has an interesting grain pattern, and fill the grain with black grain filler.

Once that's completely filled/leveled a couple of coats of sanding sealer, then spray with toners, some of us here are fond of the Mohawk Ultra toners, you could do the center of the front of the body and/or back with a lighter transaparent blue, and a very dark, more opaque blue for the sides /burstover or back/sides/burstover.

Here's the closest thing I could find on the Showcase, imagine it with lighter blue tones... Maybe you can get CB to give you his secret recipe for "Blue Jean Blue"...

http://www.warmoth.com/showcase/sc_guitar_bodies.cfm?type=guitar&itemNumber=PS2328&menuItem=1&subMenuItem=2&subMenuItem2=0&bodyWood_filter=3,38

 

[-CB-]

As in most things - for a really good end result, be prepared to sink some effort, time and money into it.

I think you can get an ok transparent finish on alder, but... ash would be a better choice.  The down side is you're going to have to do a lot more filling with ash.

Blue burst... I tell ya... blue is a sonofabtich.  Even look at W's showcase, and you can see that blue tends to go go aqua colored.  I'm pretty much sure this is from blue going through capillary separation in the wood itself.  Notably, even after clear coating and drying, my BFG Gibson has gone markedly "greener".  Look at W's showcase tops... some of them are indeed very aqua and or greenish blue.

You can get some one shot sprayers from Re-Ranch and other places.  These work ok for the color coats.  I'd be inclined level, seal (if you like), then give it a clearcoat.  Level that, another clearcoat... level THAT, then shoot the base color on, followed by stronger and darker edges.  Finally you can clearcoat over that a few times with regular aerosols.  That will preserve the blue.  And if you get really bad and fubar, its an easier take off.  That being the case, remember to clear coat again before shooting color.

For good effect, you can do black filler on ash, sand back to get a striking grain, then do the sealer (if you want) , clearcoats, then colors. 

I will dontate some blue dye to the cause if you'd like some.... just gotta get a nice little bottle for it, and its yours.  ITS VERY STRONG, so expect to thin it AT LEAST 50/50 with acetone if shooting it, or just coloring some lacquer to build depth and color at the same time.  Later you can add some black (just a hint) and shoot the edges... then a bit more black to get the bursted effect.

 

[Tonar8352]

Can a burst finish be done without spraying?

Yes you can do it with aniline dyes.  I did a P-Bass a few years back in a blue burst with aniline.  Also, look at the early Gibson mandolin and guitar finishes.  They did those bursts with stains and then varnished over top of them.   I’ll do a sample board for you and show you step by step.  I do prefer using shading lacquers but I think we can pull off a pretty good blue burst with the aniline dyes.  

Maybe Gregg could send me a nice 3.5 lb single piece swamp strat to use for our experiment.  LOL!!!!!!!!  I’ll get some wood this week and give it a go.  Do you want the colors to go Light Blue to Dark Blue to Black or Light Blue to Medium Blue to Dark Blue?

 

[-CB-]

Aniline dye...  could be a lot of things, depending on the medium its in.  Care to be more specific?

 

[Tonar8352]

Aniline mixed in shellac solvent.

 

[jackthehack]

How do you get burst w/o spraying? If I look at the old Gibsons from the 20s-30s like at this link:

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/gibson2.html#styleo

...there dosen't seem to be much "bursting" effect, some of those guitars just have a highlighted center portion, and the darker colors appear to be wiped/sponged on, doesn't do much for me, what are you talking about application technique wise?

 

[-CB-]

Aniline mixed in shellac solvent.

Then that is an alcohol borne aniline dye.  There are also metallic dyes as well, in alcohol.

 

[Alfang]

If your looking at alder as opposed to maple for cost reasons, I gotta input this, I just built my first alder body guitar (all warmoth) for a buddy of mine, I have never been a big believer in the sound of the woods till now, the alder, for whatever reason sounds awesome.  Ash has a better looking grain, I have several Ash builds, But I am sold on alder now, My next build will be alder.

So figure out how make it look sweet, and let us know.

 

[Tonar8352]

Aniline dye or metallic dye, or even color in oil, they all work.  They work in either shellac solvent or lacquer thinner.  The advantage is they are real strong and they work fast.  Metallic has better color steadfastness under UV.  The thinner is the vehicle that moves the dye around the surface.  Here is a green drum that I did for my son about 5 years ago.  It was powdered aniline mixed in shellac solvent (alcohol, denatured alcohol) and wiped on with a rag, and then it has US Cellulose gloss lacquer over it.  There are so many things you can do with dyes or color in oil to mix your own colors and it is a blast playing with them.  

 

[-CB-]

Nice drum job there !~

 

[Alfang]

I didn't know drums were made of wood

 

[Tonar8352]

I picked up a piece of alder today to do a color board for you in a blue burst.  I would have preferred to use swamp ash but my buddy only had alder in his shop.  I will do a step-by step photo shoot and post it on a new thread.  I should be able to have it stained by tomorrow night.