New neck - 30 degrees fret bevel question

[Schneidas]

Hi guys,

I'm planning on ordering a neck from the showcase this week.
Question: Warmoth seems to do a 30 degrees fret bevel on their frets but I can spec for them to not do it.

FWIW, I'm going to order 6100 frets on the neck.
The thing is, the neck is for a Strat body which I'm going to use a vintage spec bridge on with a wide string spacing of  2-1/4" (57mm).

What to do?
If I have them bevel the frets - will there be problems like the high E /low E strings slipping off the frets?
Does it feel better with the bevel or is it better to not have that bevel on the frets?
What did you opt for on your necks and how happy have you been?

Thanks

 

[AutoBat]

Strings slipping off the frets almost depends more on your playing style, but I can see your concern.

In my opinion:
If you have them bevel it, which is the default way to do it, then you may get away without needing a fretjob (this statement may vary depending on board member)
If you don't, you're definitely going to want it dressed, leveled, crowned. Whether you do this yourself of pay out for it.
^^Because if you elect to have no bevel and try to play it out of the box the ends of the frets are probably going to eat your fingers.

 

[stubhead]

There were a string of posts a year or so back about the inconsistency of the beveling, and a few picture of some frets that were way over-beveled (in my opinion). However, Warmoth does follow this board and I haven't seem anything for a long while about this, so it's very possible they may have resolved it.

I personally prefer what's called "hotdog" ends, where each fret end is hemispherical. I do this myself, and just about any factory beveling is likely to be too much - Stew-Mac even sells a tool that gives you a 35 degree bevel, which is way more than too much for my preferences:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Shaping_and_crowning/Fret_Beveling_File.html

So the last few necks I've gotten (not here) I've had the builder leave the frets ends unbeveled and I did the ends myself (it's a LOT of work....). Warmoth will surely sell a neck like that, it saves them time. This is a tricky thing for them - many, many people (most) don't want to crown and polish frets to perfection, or pay someone to do it, so builders like Warmoth have the dilemma of trying to please people who don't dress frets by beveling the ends - a lot - without making them unusable because of too much beveling. They're almost always seated well enough that they don't need leveling, but Warmoth themselves recommend that the frets be finished afterward. Personally, I don't really think it's worthwhile to do a full level, crown and polish until the neck has set up for several months, been through at least one climate change & you've mostly decided on string gauge. "Plek"ing an unplayed neck seems wasteful, to me.

The short story is, only Warmoth can answer this question. There's nothing on their site about specifying the degree of beveling, but if you asked, real nice, they do try to please people. If you were to specify "25 degrees" on the order sheet, talk to the sales person, make sure he gets the message to the fret beveler... it's hard to see why they wouldn't? If you really want the wide bridge for fingerpicking and whatnot, I personally would go for the superwide neck option -
http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/Superwide_WarmothPro.aspx

This is one of those area where the "Leo got it right the first time" cheerleaders seem way off the mark to me, the oldest Fender style of skinny neck - wide bridge meant that the strings were falling off the neck more often than not - top, bottom or both.

 

[Cagey]

I agree with Autobat - it's going to depend heavily on your playing style. A bridge that wide is going to put the strings on the hairy edge of the frets in the higher registers, so if your fingering isn't dead-nuts accurate and consistent, you're going to have problems. That "vintage" spacing was spec'd back 100 years ago when Fender barely put frets on the guitar, let alone mungo railroad ties like 6100s. A bevel/dress/polish didn't amount to much on those early frets.

I have 4 Warmoth Pro necks here with either SS or "gold" 6100s, and wouldn't change them if you paid me. I just put a caliper on one of them, and I don't think the thing would be playable at all with a "vintage" spaced bridge. Measured at the 22nd fret, with a ~30 degree bevel the usable top is only ~2.10" wide, or ~53mm. Even without the bevel, they'd only be ~55mm wide. That doesn't leave any room at all. I don't know about you, but I'd be pulling the Es off the fingerboard constantly.

 

[erogenousjones17]

This is probably just me being incompetent, but when I tried installing a vintage-spaced bridge on a 1-11/16" neck, the strings were already hanging off the edges of the fretboard, regardless of the bevel. Ok, that's a bit of hyperbole, but not much: the guitar was, for all intents and purposes, unplayable. I switched to a 2-1/16" bridge and all is well. The frets weren't overly beveled, though they are smallish--I don't like playing on railroad ties--and I "hotdogged" the ends myself, to use Stubby's term. 

 

[Schneidas]

Damn, that doesn't sound too good.

FWIW, I found the thread after searching for a while:
http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=13330.0

To be honest, I'm just a tad anxious and pretty sure that a 30 degree bevel on the frets will almost certainly ruin the playbility.
I have a Fender YJM Strat and it comes with the Fender vintage bridge as well. It is borderline on the high frets and the frets are very slightly, comfortably rounded. I can play fine, but *any* more bevel on the frets - and no one could play that neck comfortably.
It is not a matter of technique. It's the problematic hardware - the ridiculous wide spacing of that bridge.
BUT the vintage bridge has that great vintage sound to it - so you gotta live with the spacing issues - and there are very little issues if the neck frets are only very slightly rounded/beveled.

From the looks in those pics above - if *that* neck was on my YJM Strat - it would be unplayable on the high frets.

So, I guess the only option would be to order it un-beveled. It would be great if Warmoth could just *very* slightly bevel the frets. You know, like 10 to 15 degrees at max. But I guess that's not an option when I order online from the showcase, right?

So it's either beveled - and risk of getting a full 30 degrees or even more and ruin everything.
Or *no bevel* and get a neck that needs serious amount of work from a tech and more money...

 

[AutoBat]

when in doubt, call!

 

[Schneidas]

Haha, good call!
Yeah, I'll do that first

 

[Strat Avenger]

'Not tryin' to thread-jack here, but bridge width was mentioned, and I am curious; how does the width of a Floyd Rose compare to a vintage Fender bridge?

 

[back2thefutre]

Im like you, I dont like the strings slipping off. I loved my first 3 necks cause that didnt happen. I ordered a neck a few months ago and the bevel was WAY too much. I was very dissapointed and sent it back. But, I remember somewhere on the w. site reading that they can do a 30 degree bevel or do it straight up with no bevel. So just call and they will do it for you :icon_thumright:

 

[Nando Vallart]

You can ask them to not do it, I asked it on all my ordered necks  :icon_thumright:

 

[NovasScootYa]

IMO, a new Warmoth neck does not need to be a file leveled. After the neck has been fully tweaked and played for a period of time then most wacky frets can be hunted down and reseated, etc.  If you pay a joker to file level frets eventually some of his so-called leveled frets will shift then it's time for another grinding and on and on it goes until you're broke and disgusted.
To bevel or not to bevel? For taller 6105 wire use a fret bevel file to increase the fret angle and soften the board edge all at once then detail the fret ends and finish rolling the board with a file. Do not shoe-shine the board edges with sandpaper because it creates fret end speed bumps. It is not wise to overwork fret ends between the 12th to 22nd fret, that will cause the Es to slip off the board. With tall wire you can only eliminate feeling the fret ends to a degree. This is detailed work requiring tools and mucho practice.
As for wide bridges, if it's not Fender 2 7/32" spacing on a Strat or Tele it's not used here. If you need more board edge check neck alignment or squeeze the saddles together, after all you have to spread 'em out to get 2 7/32" spacing, Warmoth bridge saddles may not be squeezable but the strings can be moved on the saddles if necessary.  Good luck.

BTW, Below photo is a hardtail body I purchased today, no unfinished hardtails left in the showcase…been a run on unfinished hardtails lately and I missed the last one by a hair yesterday so I waited all day today for one to pop up on RSS feed. Weighs 4 lbs. 5 oz.  that's on the money for a hardtail. They have an incredible selection of unfinished tremolo bodies and deals...

http://www.warmoth.com/Showcase/ShowcaseItem.aspx?Body=2&Path=Body&i=S4740&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WarmothShowcaseGuitarBodies+%28Warmoth+Showcase+Guitar+Bodies%29

http://feeds2.feedburner.com/WarmothShowcaseGuitarBodies

 

[Strat Avenger]

This has nothing to do with beveling the ends, but It's pretty easy to check the "levelness" of the frets after the guitar is completed.

My My USACG neck had two high frets; #11 and #13. After the neck was on there for almost a year, I had my Luthier do a minor fret-leveling . It plays quite nicely.

Another nice thing about it is that he charged me only $80 to do it ---- and they are SS frets! I was quite pleased.

 

[Cagey]

Only $80? And you were pleased? I'd have bitched up a storm.

I love getting reminded of how good I've got it around here.

 

[NovasScootYa]

I could have swore I read a fret bevel question ^ somewhere? General fret level is checked prior to assembly.  Contrary to popular belief, fret level concerns rank near the bottom of the tweak list due to the time it takes for a neck to settle. And, that's not a guarantee things are parked because some necks are more finicky than others.
The 2 7/32" spacing is intended for a 21 fret neck. However, I never had an issue with playability on the 22nd fret or E strings slipping off the board, etc. Or have I ever heard of anyone who preferred a blunt fret angle over industry bevel standards, etc.  Perhaps Fender should stop offering rolled boards as a selling point and the custom shop should go with import spacing? I guess it's amazing how for the last 55 plus years artists managed to get by all the drawbacks and many did it with 7 1/4 radius boards.
Here we are with state of the art flat 10/16 radius necks setting them up like Squires with blunt frets, narrow spacing, etc.
Some attributes for Fender Strats and Teles are set in stone by the artists who made 'em famous. That's not saying they couldn't have done great things with different setups what that says is they did it primarily with basic vintage hardware and continue to do so. It's sorta like a B-52, you wouldn't narrow the wings when they've worked very well for over a half century and continue to do so.
If you hand your parts-o-caster to a Beck, Mayer, EJ et al it had better feel right, play right and sound right or it's back to the drawing board.
Frankly 6100 frets are almost too tall to tame. If you want a lesser headache, smoother feeling bevel edge Warmoth neck that’s more or less bolt on and go order a no finish required exotic wood with Gibson .036” wire. To slick it up a bit cut .010” deep scallops beneath the E, B & G from the 12th to 22nd fret.

 

[Strat Avenger]

Only $80? And you were pleased? I'd have bitched up a storm.

I love getting reminded of how good I've got it around here.

What are you talking about? Fret leveling goes for anywhere from $100 to $150, and many Luthiers charge extra for SS frets, and some won't touch them at all.
80 bucks was a deal.

 

[Strat Avenger]

I could have swore I read a fret bevel question ^ somewhere? General fret level is checked prior to assembly.  Contrary to popular belief, fret level concerns rank near the bottom of the tweak list due to the time it takes for a neck to settle. And, that's not a guarantee things are parked because some necks are more finicky than others.
The 2 7/32" spacing is intended for a 21 fret neck. However, I never had an issue with playability on the 22nd fret or E strings slipping off the board, etc. Or have I ever heard of anyone who preferred a blunt fret angle over industry bevel standards, etc.  Perhaps Fender should stop offering rolled boards as a selling point and the custom shop should go with import spacing? I guess it's amazing how for the last 55 plus years artists managed to get by all the drawbacks and many did it with 7 1/4 radius boards.
Here we are with state of the art flat 10/16 radius necks setting them up like Squires with blunt frets, narrow spacing, etc.
Some attributes for Fender Strats and Teles are set in stone by the artists who made 'em famous. That's not saying they couldn't have done great things with different setups what that says is they did it primarily with basic vintage hardware and continue to do so. It's sorta like a B-52, you wouldn't narrow the wings when they've worked very well for over a half century and continue to do so.
If you hand your parts-o-caster to a Beck, Mayer, EJ et al it had better feel right, play right and sound right or it's back to the drawing board.
Frankly 6100 frets are almost too tall to tame. If you want a lesser headache, smoother feeling bevel edge Warmoth neck that’s more or less bolt on and go order a no finish required exotic wood with Gibson .036” wire. To slick it up a bit cut .010” deep scallops beneath the E, B & G from the 12th to 22nd fret.

The original topic was/is fret beveling, but someone mentioned fret leveling, so I made a comment.

As for the last part of your post; just because the old timers made the best of the only thing available at the time, that does not mean that improvements cannot or should not be made.  I agree with you that it would be ridiculous to not bevel the fret ends.

 

[Cagey]

Only $80? And you were pleased? I'd have bitched up a storm.

I love getting reminded of how good I've got it around here.

What are you talking about? Fret leveling goes for anywhere from $100 to $150, and many Luthiers charge extra for SS frets, and some won't touch them at all.
80 bucks was a deal.

As long as you're happy, I'm happy. But, next time you need some frets leveled, I wish you'd call me <grin>

 

[NovasScootYa]

The original topic was/is fret beveling, but someone mentioned fret leveling, so I made a comment.

As for the last part of your post; just because the old timers made the best of the only thing available at the time, that does not mean that improvements cannot or should not be made.  I agree with you that it would be ridiculous to not bevel the fret ends.

Point taken. Second part, I suspect Fender experimented with every string spread imaginable and the spread that aligned best with 3 single coils was the one selected and proven.
I’ve used more than my fair share of import bridges, etc. I also used to think they were the only way to go for all the usual reasons posted. Most players eventually come around to Fender basics after they’re finished looking for something that as of now does not exist.
Based on the way a Stratocaster is designed it would be very difficult to improve the bridge or playability when the improvement starts with import spacing. There are lots of bridge designs out there even some with roller saddles and all fall way short of bent saddle quack, etc. That's why most all name builders trying to survive start with basic looking vintage setups and attempt to improve around it. I.E. Adding titanium saddles, brass/steel tremolo blocks, stainless screws, pickups, pots, capacitors, various materials for nuts and frets, variety of stings, different woods, weight, finishes, etc.
I’m all for innovation, new ideas, etc. but the bar has been set very high by the design innovations of Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, etc. I suspect they’ll hold the line for a very long time like Stradivarius.