My Beliefs on Guitar Tone

[Wana_make_a_guitar]

I love the Boosh.  :icon_biggrin:

 

[smavridis]

Hannaugh, since Smavridis changed his avatar to his picture, he's hard to be offended by or taken as "snippy."

and thats what i aimed for.

 

[AprioriMark]

It always amazes me how some people will disagree about ANYTHING just to feed their own ego.  Especially when their own experience is so limited and the subject matter is creative in nature.  Just ugh.

-Mark

 

[jerryjg]

It always amazes me how some people will disagree about ANYTHING just to feed their own ego.  Especially when their own experience is so limited and the subject matter is creative in nature.  Just ugh.

-Mark

I disagree.

 

[-CB-]

It always amazes me how some people will disagree about ANYTHING just to feed their own ego.  Especially when their own experience is so limited and the subject matter is creative in nature.  Just ugh.

-Mark

I disagree.

Now thats effin hillarious!

 

[stubhead]

No. It's not. :blob7:

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

I'd like to buy an arguement.

No you wouldn't.

 

[KwazyTwang]

Ok, just some food for thought....

Why does the wood need to breath? (Response) In my experience older guitars sound better from aging. But only those that don't have a lacquer. (Opinion) Why? Because you restrict the guitar from expanding and contracting like it normally would. If you allow it to breathe it increases resonance "Some"! Keyword "Some" It does not destroy the tone of the wood completely. Many master violin builders in Europe have took that into consideration for years. They use only maple that they've aged in uncontrolled temperature enviroments for 40 years.
They also use formulated shellac, though on the outside of the guitar to improve tone. Which works for that instrument. As a generality though expensive violins are always form aged woods.

Why does poly hurt tone.  What property of a poly finish is different from other finishes that makes that so?  Under what conditions does poly hurt tone?(Response) It doesn't hurt it necessarily. It does change it though. And I hold firmly to that. It just depends upon what you like to hear.

Could poly improve tone?  If so, under what conditions? (Response) Honestly, I'm not totally sure what it could improve. You'll agree everything is subjective and up to personal preference.


We cant take the same exact body and pickups and neck and refinish it - so we have to draw on generality, based on large samples of poly vs whatever.  What other specific traits did those large samples have?  Was there anything specific to those poly finished guitars that varied, or was different from the other guitars?

Let me give you a "for instance"....

A person might like the sound (tone) of a twin pickup ES-137, and not like the tone of a Telecaster.  So one might conclude the following:
Solid bodies suck for tone.
Poly finish sucks for tone
Single coils suck for tone
Maple fingerboards suck for tone
Maple necks suck for tone
Bolt on necks suck for tone
Angled pegheads improve tone
....and the list goes on and on.

But, we know there are GREAT and FANTASTIC and KILLER sounding guitars with solid bodies, poly finishes, single coil pickups, bolt on maple necks with maple fretboards, and straight headstocks.  And there are terrible guitars with hollow bodies, nitro finishes, HB's, and glued in mahogany /rosewood angle peghead necks.

So that leaves a huge giant HMMMMMMMmmmmmm in ones mind.

To all that, I've concluded its hogwash. 

Real tone comes from the knob that is labeled "Tone" (or is blank but has the same function).

With the selection of the right knob, all will be right with the world.  And knobs are easier and cheaper to change than pickups, or necks or finishes.  So if the strat knob doesn't cut it, use a bell knob, or speed knob, or wooden speed knob....

But, when you change knobs, please be sure to use knobs made of old wood, or vintage plastic, or better yet "phenolic" plastic.  Make sure your brass knob is made of bell brass, not common brass.  And the set screw... it must NEVER be a socket head type, or a philips head type, but ALWAYS a single, shallow slot.  Yah they tend to let the screwdriver slip, but that is where the real tone is made.

Then go out and learn to play your guitar.

 

[KwazyTwang]

To all that, I've concluded its hogwash. 

Real tone comes from the knob that is labeled "Tone" (or is blank but has the same function).

With the selection of the right knob, all will be right with the world.  And knobs are easier and cheaper to change than pickups, or necks or finishes.  So if the strat knob doesn't cut it, use a bell knob, or speed knob, or wooden speed knob....

But, when you change knobs, please be sure to use knobs made of old wood, or vintage plastic, or better yet "phenolic" plastic.  Make sure your brass knob is made of bell brass, not common brass.  And the set screw... it must NEVER be a socket head type, or a philips head type, but ALWAYS a single, shallow slot.  Yah they tend to let the screwdriver slip, but that is where the real tone is made.

Then go out and learn to play your guitar. (Response) That's really cute. In fact. you know what? Yeah, you're right! Finish choice is hogwash! And pickup covers don't matter! I think I'll go buy a guitar body right now and "baste" it in conrete, pour some Mr's Butterworths on it and then lacquer it! NICE N STICKY!
You don't have to be sarcastic man. I can do that too! I'm not totally against lacquer. I think it looks really nice. I would buy one if I liked it's tone. There's something called constructive criticism. The point of posting on here is for everyone to question, and learn how to improve their guitar. But you don't need to perpetuate negativity.
[/quote]

 

[texicus]

Tone is in the ears of the beerholder.

 

[-CB-]

Sarcastic?  Just look at this link.... fully supports that knobs make a difference

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/07/astronomically_overp.html

 

[MUYFUE]

This thread is a'rollin' for a trollin'.

Just play already! Before you do, check out the comparison on the real vs. fake AC 30 and the Orange amp.
See if your ears can even tell the difference. Those a/b tests are my fave.

I was going to make one with the BnB XL500 and the BL USA XL500...but I don't wanna get shot.  :toothy12:

Like the heavy vs. light tuning peg thread, and the poly vs. nitro thread, and the carved top vs lam thread, and the blue vs. green thread, and the bolt vs. set thread, and the bone vs. corian nut thread, and the chrome vs. black hardware thread...That's what makes guitar FUN!  :blob7:

There's only so many things you can change on a Violin, for example. I love all the various combos of all the parts of the electric guitar, before we even get to the singal chain. It's like DNA! Flavin!

I say NEVER stop experimenting, but always have your B.S. detector on. I'm sure no one is going to buy a 400$ KNOB, and nobody here bought a Titanium trem block...I hope. Know where to stop.

 

[KwazyTwang]

Sarcastic?  Just look at this link.... fully supports that knobs make a difference

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/07/astronomically_overp.html

Well I haven't heard it so I couldn't say. I am a strong believer in high end components though. I figured you weren't talking about pots. Sorry about that!  :rock-on:

 

[Steve_Karl]

If you've ever played an old guitar that was played lovingly by intent musicians, and then played the same model that was kept in a closet for 50 years,

This happened to you? Which guitars?

Specifically, holly bodies (Gibson Super 400 and a 40s Epi Archtop... I think a Zenith) played by Dixeland/swing musicians.  When I was a youngin', I had the experience of hanging out with an amazing player at a festival who was a friend of my grandfather's, and he was looking to replace those two guitars.  We hit up auctions and estate sales, and he'd already bought a couple Super 400s.  He had all the guitars he bought set up by the guy who'd been setting up his current axes, and without fail, the ones that had been played ended up sounding and "feeling" better than the closet guitars.

While this is certainly not a cross section of all guitars or any sort of empirical evidence, it's in keeping with the old orchestral idea that great instruments take on some of the life of their owners, and that the wood carries on the "soul" of the people who've played them.  

-Mark

Great post and something that I had forgotten about but also have experienced when playing older used instruments.
This perspective becomes very relevant when I'm sitting here trying to get me new W. build to "feel" satisfying ... the way my 25+ year old Warmoth feels.
Some things just take time.

 

[Jeremiah]

Folks, having been there/done that with putting different necks on the same body.... necks made of differente woods, or the same wood with different fretboard material, I can tell ya....

Ruling out the player.... and the amp (because the amp is half of the tone at least, and an instrument in itself)

#1 - its the pickups stupid
#2 - neck wood and contour.  I dont thing maple vs ebony vs rosewood vs goncalo vs pau ferro makes a difference on an otherwise very stiff neck - like maple.  On a mahogany neck or other neck with some wood less dense than maple, less stiff than maple, then there is probably some effect.
#3 - how you wire it
#4 - strings
#5 - everything else in a very distant last place.  Finish - nil effect on a solid body.  Bridge, almost nil, nut almost nil, fret material, just over almost nil.  Certainly there is more effect in tone with changing string type (ie pure nickle vs plated, vs stainless) than in fret material.

This is a bit of an old thread, but not quite dead, I hope...

I'd be interested to know what effect you think the neck/truss rod construction has, eg Warmoth Pro vs vintage style truss rod.

 

[nexrex]

For me tone has always been about technique(picking accuracy, speed, fluidity, chord accuracy, timing, pressure and position of fingers etc). Yeah good gear makes a big difference.

I have had an Epiiphone LP since I first started playing guitar ten years ago. Same pickups everything, played through the same amp and pedals. When I first started my tone was horrible, now with the same guitar and setup my tone sounds sweeter and smoother.

 

[Superlizard]

This is a bit of an old thread, but not quite dead, I hope...

I'd be interested to know what effect you think the neck/truss rod construction has, eg Warmoth Pro vs vintage style truss rod.

Vintage truss has more mids.

 

[Superlizard]

Speaking of tone (heh heh heh):

I have my own saying that goes like this:

"It always sounds t!ts... until you hear something better"

I've been playing for 27 years... had my fair share of gits, amps & effects.  SS, t00b, emu, hi-output, lo-output, etc...

The first amp I bought (after my very first practice amp) was a Crate SS 2x12 - bought a bunch of BOSS pedals w/ pedalboard - had a Kramer Baretta with JB pickup.

When I played this rig, I thought it was the best tone I'd ever played with.

Then with a few years, bought my first Marshall head (2210 100W)... and that was the best tone I'd ever played with.

Flash forward to today - have a JTM45 (I respeced to vintage) and an all-original '66-'67 Fender Deluxe.

Safe to say, but now the tone I currently have is by far the best I'd ever played with.



Is it because of age and/or more practice time in?  Not precisely. 

Is it because of new advances in amp/guitar/gear technology?  Definitely not.



- It's because I'm playing through amps which are very simple in design and therefore allow
the guitar's inherent tone to shine through without layers upon layers of processing.  These amps
are not forgiving; there's no wall of distortion to hide your mistakes.  (and t00bs are very important)

- It's also because I lowered the amount of gain/dist I play with by using "vintage" output pickups; which
allow the guitar's notes/chord to ring though clearly... as well as easing up on the "gain" knob on stomps.
I simply do not play with the super-buzzy amount of mondo distortion I used to play with as a kid.

- It's also because I took the time (and $$$) to experiment and learn what goes on with amps, guitars and the like.
I no longer walk into a music store and buy brand-name just because it's... brand name - I build it or mod it; the way I want.

Basic tone rule of thumb: less is more.  The more crap you put in your signal chain, the more processed crap comes out.

...and always, too much gain/distortion is bad.  That's where you turn down the heat and let your fingers work at it.

It prolly took me maybe 10 years to really get used to playing through the amps I have now... before I used to crank the distortion
to the point where I could sneeze on the fretboard and a power chord would ring out.  But that's not tone; that's just buzzy
angry bees.  All you're hearing is compressed distortion and not the fundamental.

 

[Steve_Karl]

Basic tone rule of thumb: less is more. 

I agree.
I've been working for 10 yrs, or more at playing direct, into mixing console (earlier) or mic pre (most recent) ... no amp ... no processing ...
( i.e. until I get to the mix where I'll do some post processing )

When I first tried this approach It used to hurt my fingers ... my action was always too low, but slowly and with patience I'm now getting
it up to where it should be, and getting a tone that I really like, and getting it right off of the guitar ... all wood, pups and setup ... and as little "other" as possible.

 

[jimbo]

Not sure if its been mentioned but orientation has a huge play in tone. Left-handed bodies and necks tend to sound far better than their right-handed equivalents... to us southpaws
I've got a variety of guitars - and as it was mentioned before - comfort has a huge affect on your personal tone. The more comfortable you are the cleaner you'll play - and the cleaner it will sound.
...With that being said I'm currently thinking about building a black korina tele thinline with p90's and a birdseye maple neck. Will the tone be great? Hard to say, but there's only one way to find out!