Looking to avoid “Neck Dive”

[NorthsideNate]

Hello all! New member. Gearing up for a tele build. I used to have a Fender Lite Ash Tele and, while I couldn’t get a bad sound out of it, it was so neck heavy I had to move on. I remember reading long ago that Birdseye maple is generally heavier than other cuts of maple and that’s what was on that Fender. My question, though, is this: Is there a Tele body weight that is sort of a line in the sand as far as “neck-dive” is concerned? A light body definitely appeals to me on paper, but I want an instrument that is mostly balanced while standing. I’m shooting for Swamp Ash body and maple or quartersawn maple neck, with rosewood board. Thanks, in advance, and have a great one!

 

[scobass]

The shape of the body has a big impact on neck dive. Tele's are simply not a practical body shape to avoid neck dive. You want something with a longer upper horn.

That said, you can always opt for the lightest tuners available, possibly even going for a graphite truss rod. You can also use the heaviest hardware available in the body for the bridge, etc.

Lastly, you may want to opt for a heavier body wood. A heavy but well balanced guitar will actually "feel" lighter than a poorly balanced light guitar.

Really you can't do a whole lot to make the neck lighter. It's easier to add weight on the body or change the shape to achieve balance.

 

[BroccoliRob]

yo, my dumpling, have you weighed the body you have now?

and why would birdseye weigh more than other, isn't it just figure? Its the same tree species from the same part of the country, right? Is flame heavier than quilt?

I know my modern warmoth neck weighs more than my friends' vintage neck (also from biggie W) so i guess that's something to keep in mind

 

[NorthsideNate]

Yeah maybe what I read stated birdseye as being more dense, not necessarily heavier. Idk...long time ago I read that. And I can dig the body shape playing a role. Thanks for the input, guys!

 

[Rick]

If neck dive is an issue don't get a tele.  I now have two, and have owned teles since I started playing electric guitar.  My first electric was a tele.  Influenced by bruce springsteen, though I found out later that was an esquire. They all have some neck dive.  Best to get a light body, and light tuners, a wide leather strap.  I found that any guitar under 8 LBS is comfortable, I just hold the neck up when needed.  So I guess that means get a body that's under 4 LBS.  8oz Use dunlop strap locks.  I play the tambourine with my right hand, hold the neck in my left.  If you like the look, then get it.  Get quarter sawn, because it looks real pretty.  By their geometry the VIPS and Jazzmasters are easier to deal with.

 

[rgand]

Welcome to the forum.

If you like a Tele but are concerned with neck dive, maybe the Strat hybrid is for you.

 

[NorthsideNate]

Rick, thanks! Makes a lot of sense. I do really feel like that Lite Ash Tele I had was uniquely out of balance, but I totally understand and believe what y’all are saying about the Tele having inherent hang issues. I can see it, now. And I’ve looked often at the hybrid strats...very tempting and cool. I’m just so smitten, currently, with the Mike Bloomfield Tele colorway and look haha (pre chop). Thank you guys, again, for your help.

 

[Rick]

Oh yeah, forgot about the hybrids ... they are cool.  Oh yeah, as to weight of flame vs bird's eye vs quarter sawn vs flat sawn ... never noticed that as a difference.  I just went with what I could afford and looked pretty.  Yes, I'm shallow.

 

[Cagey]

Different hunks of wood of the same size from the same species can and usually does have different weights, although there's usually a min/max range. That's why some guys will sometimes pay Warmoth (or whoever) to row through their blank stock to find a lighter piece. With smaller pieces such as for necks, it's probably not worth it, but for bodies they will.

I always weigh pieces here, more out of curiosity than anything else, and it's surprising sometimes.

 

[NorthsideNate]

Thanks Cagey! Yeah I’m seeing a consensus here that the neck weight most likely was either not the issue or not the main issue with the Lite Ash Tele I keep referring to. That body must have been seriously light. I never weighed it disassembled. I feel, thanks to y’all’s input, like I can get something together that will present much less of that issue, while allowing me some cosmetic choices I thought I might need to avoid. Thanks again, guys!

 

[Cagey]

With neck dive, it's usually more an issue of where the strap hangers are located than body/neck weight, unless we're talking about basses with all the leverage those long necks provide. I don't often see any dive on Fender (guitar) designs. Teles might have the most potential for it, but even there it's pretty rare. For example, I recently put together a Tele with a sub-3lb body and a roasted Maple neck that didn't dive.

 

[mayfly]

Just throwing in my $0.02 in here,

I've built 7 warmoth telecasters, each with boatneck profile necks, locking tuners, and selected light bodies.  I have yet to have neck dive issues.

YYMV and all that, but no problems with me.

 

[NorthsideNate]

Thanks, Mayfly! Good to hear! I’m getting stoked from these answers. I’ll make sure to have a wide strap on hand just in case, but it seems like it’s not gonna be the huge issue it was with that one instrument I had. What about placing the forward strap button at the neck plate? That would make the strap ride against your body more, yeah? Had an old SG once that was like that and it would have had a little neck dive, had it been moved to the top horn. Cheers, guys!

 

[Cagey]

Usually on "divers" the forward strap button is too close to the center of gravity. So, I can't imagine moving it to the neck attachment would improve anything. Likely make it worse. You'd have better luck moving the rear attachment forward, although I doubt it would be comfortable to play.

You may be worried unnecessarily. As Mayfly pointed out, diving Teles don't occur very often. I have 5 myself and none of them have that problem even though all of them have exotic or semi-exotic wood necks that are usually heavier pieces.

The Tele I mentioned earlier ended up being only 6.5 lbs. total, and it didn't dive. While possible, the design just isn't prone to it.

 

[amon]

Locate at least the rear strap button like this and you will not experience neck dive.

 

[amon]

[quote author=Cagey]
I can't imagine moving it to the neck attachment would improve anything. Likely make it worse. You'd have better luck moving the rear attachment forward, although I doubt it would be comfortable to play.[/quote]
Moving the front button to the neck plate makes the strap lie flat (not twist after it goes over your shoulder) and improves the balance.  Moving the rear button to the "BC Rich" position (I was first inspired to do it by the "kidney bean" attachment on Steinberger basses) pulls the tail of the guitar in closer to your body, making the strap hug to you more comfortably.

 

[pirate]

Well I can tell you my tele has zero neck dive. The body weighed in at 2 lb 15 oz, with a roasted maple neck. No dive at all. So I don't think it's just the tele shape at all.

 

[pirate]

With neck dive, it's usually more an issue of where the strap hangers are located than body/neck weight, unless we're talking about basses with all the leverage those long necks provide. I don't often see any dive on Fender (guitar) designs. Teles might have the most potential for it, but even there it's pretty rare. For example, I recently put together a Tele with a sub-3lb body and a roasted Maple neck that didn't dive.

Yeppers, that was mine that Cagey did, wonderful fret job again, if I say so myself  :icon_thumright:

 

[amon]

I think different people's sense of what is balanced, and what isn't, varies.  I expect my guitars to stay up to at least a 30+ degree angle when I let go of the neck.  If it falls back to even the flat position, that's a no-go for me.