Like we needed a reason to boycott them...

[m4rk0]

A while back I watched this documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIaqnq5_vcQ

Still looking for stuff to boycott?

exactly my point.. it is very ironical (and hypocrite) for Romney and his friends to claim he's all for small business, while he really should represent all that is evil for small businesses...

and large corporations don't care about creating jobs... or maybe they do, but their shareholders won't let them! it's all about the shareholders!

 

[jackthehack]

Give money to Musician's Friend instead of GC.  Good plan.

It is!  What's wrong with Musician's Friend?  I couldn't be happier with the service I've gotten from them.  I had a few issues in the past with gear and they've been great about returns and/or replacements.

They're owned by Bain Capital as well...

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Give money to Musician's Friend instead of GC.  Good plan.

It is!  What's wrong with Musician's Friend?  I couldn't be happier with the service I've gotten from them.  I had a few issues in the past with gear and they've been great about returns and/or replacements.

They're owned by Bain Capital as well...

Just saw that.  :tard:

Looks like I'll be buying from AMS and Sam Ash!

 

[Cagey]

Give money to Musician's Friend instead of GC.  Good plan.

It is!  What's wrong with Musician's Friend?  I couldn't be happier with the service I've gotten from them.  I had a few issues in the past with gear and they've been great about returns and/or replacements.

Guitar Center and Musician's Friend are the same company. Not that that's a Bad Thing; it's just that one's a brick and mortar store, and the other is an online store. So, whatever's best for you. If you don't mind being pestered by clueless teenagers, paying sales tax, not having much of a selection, or getting used gear when you're expecting new, then Guitar Center is the place to go. For less money, comprehensive stock, and no pests, Musician's Friend is the way to go. Have to wait a couple days to get your stuff, but you'll wait forever at GC, so...

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Give money to Musician's Friend instead of GC.  Good plan.

It is!  What's wrong with Musician's Friend?  I couldn't be happier with the service I've gotten from them.  I had a few issues in the past with gear and they've been great about returns and/or replacements.

Guitar Center and Musician's Friend are the same company. Not that that's a Bad Thing; it's just that one's a brick and mortar store, and the other is an online store. So, whatever's best for you. If you don't mind being pestered by clueless teenagers, paying sales tax, not having much of a selection, or getting used gear when you're expecting new, then Guitar Center is the place to go. For less money, comprehensive stock, and no pests, Musician's Friend is the way to go. Have to wait a couple days to get your stuff, but you'll wait forever at GC, so...

Well, for now on I'll be waiting for stuff from AMS!  No more Musician's Friend for me!  :headbang:

 

[Cagey]

...it is very ironical (and hypocrite) for Romney and his friends to claim he's all for small business, while he really should represent all that is evil for small businesses... and large corporations don't care about creating jobs... or maybe they do, but their shareholders won't let them! it's all about the shareholders!

You clearly have no idea where jobs come from, or how businesses stay in business.

Without business, you have no jobs. Period. End of discussion. It never ceases to amaze me the people don't realize this.

Without jobs or businesses, there are no taxes to collect. So, all you people who think the government is just going to take care of you, think again. They have no money. The only money they have is what they collect from businesses and working people. No businesses means no jobs which means no tax revenue. Now where you gonna get your welfare checks and food stamps?

I'm not sure how Romney ever owning any part of Bain Capital has anything to do with today. He doesn't own it now, doesn't work there, and hasn't for over a decade. But, even if he did, what would be wrong with that? Bain Capital is one of thousands of private equity firms in the world. That type of business is similar to a bank, but they don't take deposits and rather than loan money out, they buy an interest in a company and try to make it a going concern. There's nothing hateful about it. They're trying to grow those businesses so they're worth more, at which point they sell them. That's how they make money. In the process, the company they bought makes money, and they hire lotsa people to run the business. That's jobs, for those of you who are following along.

A bank, on the other hand, loans money to businesses at some interest rate. They also want to see the business succeed so they not only get their money back, they make an ongoing profit on the loan through interest. Banks are typically more conservative, in that they won't loan money to companies that are in trouble due to mismanagement or unfavorable market forces. That's lost jobs. Private equity firms take more risk, because there's no recovering from truly bad decisions.

When you have a situation where a company (or a country) is going tits-up due to mismanagement, you want somebody in place with a vested interest in its success who also knows how to adjust expenditures and investments in such a way as to prevent further losses, as well as begin to make money. Shareholders never prevent companies from making money. That would be foolish in the extreme.

 

[m4rk0]

...it is very ironical (and hypocrite) for Romney and his friends to claim he's all for small business, while he really should represent all that is evil for small businesses... and large corporations don't care about creating jobs... or maybe they do, but their shareholders won't let them! it's all about the shareholders!

You clearly have no idea where jobs come from, or how businesses stay in business.

you clearly have no idea about how businesses work!!!
Businesses first priority are the shareholders! not the customer, not the employees... even if they say otherwise!

why do you think a lot of businesses do so well today, but are not hiring a lot more personnel (back to 2007 levels) It's because Shareholders won't let them! it turned out they can do the same with less people, so why hire more?

I was closely involved with a BPO project in 2005, and when I asked why were doing it, since our numbers and growth looked great, I was simply told, the Shareholders demand to see more profit!

I am not saying that all large corporations are evil, because yes, we need them, (and I work for one) but they exist to make profit.. at all cost!  so to explain my point: if they see a way to make more profit without creating more (american) jobs, they will absolutely do so!

 

[Cagey]

Businesses first priority are the shareholders! not the customer, not the employees... even if they say otherwise!

Well, duh! A business's first priority is to make a profit. Otherwise, it's a pointless endeavor and the business dissolves. So, whether it's a privately or publicly held entity makes no difference. The motivation is the same. The only difference is how thinly the profit is shared out. Privately held businesses accrue profits to an individual or partnership. Publicly held ones accrue profits to shareholders. Either way, those are the owners who profit by their investment.

why do you think a lot of businesses do so well today, but are not hiring a lot more personnel (back to 2007 levels) It's because Shareholders won't let them! it turned out they can do the same with less people, so why hire more?

Don't be silly. If by having more employees a company can make more product/money, the owners/shareholders benefit. However, if by having more employees or making more money the profit margins to go down, then of course it would be foolish to hire people. The current atmosphere of taxation, regulation and uncertainty has frightened off many investors. They don't know what their costs are going to be, so they're waiting.

You watch. Investors are sitting on trillions of dollars of capital they don't know what to do with at the moment because the current administration seems hell-bent on making their lives miserable. Once that fear is gone, you'll see a great deal of investment. Businesses and startups will grow/generate and job openings will skyrocket. Money sitting in the bank is useless. You have to invest it. It's just profoundly foolish to do so right now.

 

[m4rk0]

you're missing the point and you are watching too much Fox news..

 

[Super Turbo Deluxe Custom]

It's a little known fact that businesses are marsupials.

 

[Cagey]

you're missing the point and you are watching too much Fox news..

You haven't exposed a point to miss, and I don't watch Fox news.

 

[m4rk0]

Yes I did..
I never said that there is anything wrong with making a profit! I have been in Sales or Sales Management most of my life.. I understand that..
the question is at what cost. and outsourcing business abroad for the purpose of making a more affordable product is one thing, but purely because the shareholders demand more money is another.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Yes I did..
I never said that there is anything wrong with making a profit! I have been in Sales or Sales Management most of my life.. I understand that..
the question is at what cost. and outsourcing business abroad for the purpose of making a more affordable product is one thing, but purely because the shareholders demand more money is another.

Totally agree.

 

[Ddbltrbl]

I got to agree with Cagey on this one, you really don't seem to understand the subject matter. And in fact, are actually pointing out the very error in your own opinion.
Granted, if companies were a democracy (i.e. solely at the mercy of the Mob Rule of ignorant shareholders) then that would likely not be a good thing. But, they aren't. That is exactly the purpose for having a board of directors, a chairman of the board and a CEO that make the more real-time decisions, and along with the corporate by-laws, serve somewhat as checks and balances on each other. That isn't perfect either, but if they do a good job then it is a whole lot better than the simple majority shareholder rule you are pointing at.
The fact that Bain was run better (shipped fewer jobs overseas as one measure) before Romney left it is a great example of that process working and a testament to Romney’s ability and integrity.
You really have not exposed any reason for me to even consider a boycott. Hints and allegations, association and inuendo don't prove anything!
On the other hand, lack of concern for me, their customer and poor service will have me taking my dollars some place else in a heart beat.

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

I got to agree with Cagey on this one, you really don't seem to understand the subject matter. And in fact, are actually pointing out the very error in your own opinion.
Granted, if companies were a democracy (i.e. solely at the mercy of the Mob Rule of ignorant shareholders) then that would likely not be a good thing. But, they aren't. That is exactly the purpose for having a board of directors, a chairman of the board and a CEO that make the more real-time decisions, and along with the corporate by-laws, serve somewhat as checks and balances on each other. That isn't perfect either, but if they do a good job then it is a whole lot better than the simple majority shareholder rule you are pointing at.
The fact that Bain was run better (shipped fewer jobs overseas as one measure) before Romney left it is a great example of that process working and a testament to Romney’s ability and integrity.
You really have not exposed any reason for me to even consider a boycott. Hints and allegations, association and inuendo don't prove anything!
On the other hand, lack of concern for me, their customer and poor service will have me taking my dollars some place else in a heart beat.

Romney has no integrity.  It's common knowledge his company has purchased and fired numerous employees, plus sent numerous jobs overseas, in nothing more than efforts to make his already thick wallet thicker.

Maybe to some people, supporting someone contributing to the unemployment crisis in this country may not matter, but to me it does, and I'm not going to add to his bottom line.  IMO, supporting someone like him is akin to supporting a terrorism group.

 

[Jumble Jumble]

You watch. Investors are sitting on trillions of dollars of capital they don't know what to do with at the moment because the current administration seems hell-bent on making their lives miserable. Once that fear is gone, you'll see a great deal of investment. Businesses and startups will grow/generate and job openings will skyrocket. Money sitting in the bank is useless. You have to invest it. It's just profoundly foolish to do so right now.

Without wishing to wade in too deep, this is exactly what our right-wing party was telling us before the last election. They got in, made all the changes they said we needed, and reversed the burgeoning recovery we were experiencing, plunging the country into a double-dip recession, which is now the worst in 50 years.

 

[SustainerPlayer]

Maybe you guys should walk away from discussing any more politics on this board. It has a habit to turn nasty real quick. 

And from the guidelines of this forum:

"
* Politics:  As a subject, politics is as controversial as you can get. Posts dedicated to this topic often get heated and burn up a lot of moderator time. We don't want to moderate politics, we want a guitar parts forum. Threads dedicated to politics will be deleted without warning and that posting member likely banned. Hijacking a thread with political comments can also result in that thread being deleted and the offending member being banned from this board."

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=3.0

:rock-on:

 

[Jumble Jumble]

Ack! Bowing out now!

Anyway. I think the whole thread can be summed up like this:

ccasion14:

 

[Torment Leaves Scars]

Maybe you guys should walk away from discussing any more politics on this board. It has a habit to turn nasty real quick. 

And from the guidelines of this forum:

"
* Politics:  As a subject, politics is as controversial as you can get. Posts dedicated to this topic often get heated and burn up a lot of moderator time. We don't want to moderate politics, we want a guitar parts forum. Threads dedicated to politics will be deleted without warning and that posting member likely banned. Hijacking a thread with political comments can also result in that thread being deleted and the offending member being banned from this board."

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=3.0

:rock-on:

While I would agree with you that discussions on politics can get nasty, everyone seems to be being pretty civil.  We're all adults here and by default, that alone should guarantee discussions with a level of maturity that don't lead to name-calling and bashing.

I've never called anyone a name on this forum or insulted anyone on this forum.  I don't plan on starting now.  We all have opinions on different things, and we all find different issues to be important.  That doesn't make someone right or wrong, it's just a matter of different opinions.  Some of us like Fenders, some of us like Gibsons.  For me, I won't even do as much as look at a Gibson.  I think the quality is poor, I don't like their bodystyles (save for the Flying V and Explorer), I don't like the way they play, I don't like the way they sound, and all in all, I just really don't like ANYTHING about them.  The ONLY thing I like about the Flying V or Explorer is the way they look.  Nothing else.

The above being said, it's the same with politics.  Some people like Democrats, some people like Republicans.  Personally, I think they both suck, and I have not voted in years.  I vote by NOT voting.  Neither of these idiots represent my needs, wants, or concerns for this country. 

That being said, Fender rules, Gibson sucks.  :cool01:

 

[m4rk0]

I got to agree with Cagey on this one, you really don't seem to understand the subject matter. And in fact, are actually pointing out the very error in your own opinion.
Granted, if companies were a democracy (i.e. solely at the mercy of the Mob Rule of ignorant shareholders) then that would likely not be a good thing. But, they aren't. That is exactly the purpose for having a board of directors, a chairman of the board and a CEO that make the more real-time decisions, and along with the corporate by-laws, serve somewhat as checks and balances on each other. That isn't perfect either, but if they do a good job then it is a whole lot better than the simple majority shareholder rule you are pointing at.
The fact that Bain was run better (shipped fewer jobs overseas as one measure) before Romney left it is a great example of that process working and a testament to Romney’s ability and integrity.
You really have not exposed any reason for me to even consider a boycott. Hints and allegations, association and inuendo don't prove anything!
On the other hand, lack of concern for me, their customer and poor service will have me taking my dollars some place else in a heart beat.

I know how businesses work and I never suggested a boycott!!  I actually want them to do well and make huge profits, since 80% of the customers I deal with on a day to day basis are in the fortune 100! I am currently not in sales, but the only customer interaction I have right now is directly with CEO's, COO's, CFO's, and SVP's.

You are somehow trying to make this a political thing and suggest that I said certain things I didn't (I have been on a lot of hydrocodone this week so I may sound all over the place), but I really only made 2 separate observations:
- It is ironic that Romney pretends he will be the savior for all small business owners while in the past his (retail)chains have competed them out of business
- A lot of companies are doing pretty well today but are still on a hiring freeze. And in my experience a lot of decisions affecting jobs (such as outsourcing and lay-offs) have been dictated by Shareholders.

ok... stepping away from this topic now..