Lace Sensor fans and electronics-savy people, I need some input on what Sensor colors to pick.

[ThisIsHuhWow404]

This is gonna be a long and possibly confusing one. I really appreciate anyone who puts up with reading this and provides me with input and advice.

I’m planning out an S-type partscaster, leaning towards the Dinkycaster or Soloist, might just do a normal Strat but I don’t like the placement of the volume knob. I understand Warmoth doesn’t do holes for micro switches on the pickguard and I need to do that myself, but it seems like an easy task. And if I get Lace Duallys a three way on/on/on is essential, two of them if this winds up being an HSH setup.

I’d also like the "Gilmour Switch" option to have neck and bridge pickups together. That’s an essential mod to any Strat in my opinion, and makes pairing the Bridge and Neck that much more difficult.

Okay here’s the background.
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I was fascinated with the Fender Plus/Ultra/Deluxe guitars from the nineties when I was a kid, and want to satisfy my inner child. I’d like to have a versatile "Fat Strat" with an HSS or HSH config. I want to use Lace Sensors.

My understanding is that Lace fans insist you need to pair them with the "TBX pots" and/or the "Clapton tone circuit preamp circuit thing" in order for them to sound good, and everyone who says they hate Lace Sensors only does so because they wired them up like normal pickups in their Squier without the proper electronics.

I think the "Strat" sound primarily exists in the Neck and the "Strat quack" in the Neck/Middle position. I’d like to get more traditional "Strat" sound (e.g. Hendrix, Gilmour, Knopfler, Frusciante, Rory Gallagher) in the neck and neck/middle and then the more hard rock and alternative sound (e.g. Smashing Pumpkins, Nirvana, Weezer, maybe some more classic non-extreme metal like Sabbath or Priest) in the Bridge and Bridge/Middle.

I need you to help me pick colors. I’m trying to read up on the different colors and as of right now, this is what I’m interpreting. Please correct me if any of this is wrong.
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When Lace was owned by Fender, their two Strat configurations were "Gold/Gold/Gold" and "Red/Silver/Blue." Gold was the vintage pre-CBS Strat tone and the different colored one was the "Modern" variant (by 90s standards). After the deal with Fender ended they came out with a "Hot Gold" and "Emerald/Silver/Purple" variants. There’s a couple other colors but I don’t think any of them are what I’m looking for.

Lace’s Humbuckers are called "Duallys" and aren’t really Humbuckers. They’re actually two single coil pickups stacked next to each other intended to be coil split to one side or played together in parallel. They can be two of the same color or two different colors.

Based on the language Lace uses on their website where they "describe the pickup’s sound while avoiding saying what it actually is to avoid trademark infringement" this is what I’ve deducted.

Gold = Fender Strat, roughly the 1957-1960 Strat. Goes in all three positions.
Hot Gold = Fender Strat, roughly the 1961-1965 Strat. Goes in neck and middle. There’s a separate "Hot Gold Bridge" pickup that is hotter.
Blue = Gibson/Seth Lover PAF sound, but in single coil size. Can go in neck or bridge.
Red = This is the Seymour Duncan JB/DiMarzio Super Distortion sound but in a single coil. It always goes in the Bridge.
Emerald = They say this is the "Texas" sound and can go in the neck or middle. I’m assuming "Texas" means the Stevie Ray Vaughan sound, like the Fender Texas Special pickups, but I’ve seen some really old forum posts that suggest "Texas means SRV" in this context is a misconception, and it actually means "Gretsch/Chet Atkins/Country Gentleman" TV Jones sound.
Purple = I really don’t know what this is supposed to be. They describe it as "Hot single coil if it’s in the bridge and a P90 if it’s in the neck." I’m kind of leaning away from this one except for the Emerald/Purple Dually as a neck pickup.
Silver = Hotter RWRP single coil intended to go in the middle position between Red/Blue/Emerald/Purple.
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Here’s what I’m considering.

Bridge = I’m leaning very heavily towards the Red/Blue Dually with the Red/Red as my second choice. I’d say I’m 95% Red/Blue 5% Red/Red.

Neck = This is where I’m having the most trouble. My first instinct tells me Gold single coil, but Gold existed at the same time as Red/Silver/Blue and they were never paired together by Fender. This makes me think the output is too unbalanced and should be avoided. Although, there is a Blue/Gold Dually so maybe I could use that for an HSH. I could also go with Hot Gold or Emerald, or the Emerald/Purple Dually in an HSH setup.

Middle = Depends on what the Neck pickup is. If neck is Gold single coil, middle is Gold single coil. If neck is Hot Gold, middle is Hot Gold. If neck is Emerald single coil or Emerald/Purple Dually, middle is Emerald or Silver. If neck is Blue/Gold Dually, middle is Silver or Gold.
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As a recap, I’ll list every configuration I’m considering as of right now. I’ll exclude variants with the Red/Red Dually in the bridge because I’m probably not going for that pickup anyway.

I’m leaning more towards HSS than HSH. Due to my desire for a heavily "Strat" flavored Neck and Neck/Middle, and the nature of how where the pickup magnets are and the specific part of the strings they’re picking up, the extra millimeters of difference between the placement of the magnets in the single coil vs Humbucker might compromise the Strattyness of those positions. HSH isn’t completely out of the question, but I have obsessive tone chaser anxiety. I like the idea of "versatility" but realistically know I’m not going to play Wes Montgomery and Cryptopsy on the same guitar.

HSS:
RedBlue/Gold/Gold
RedBlue/HotGold/HotGold
RedBlue/Silver/Emerald
RedBlue/Emerald/Emerald

HSH:
RedBlue/Silver/BlueGold
RedBlue/Gold/BlueGold
RedBlue/Silver/EmeraldPurple
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Thanks again for putting up with my madman ramblings about the intricacies of the interactions between magnets, wood, nickel wires and copper wires, and I hope to read some of yours soon.

 

[db82]

TLDR :
- Opinion : I have used JB's and super distortions, and to me the Red doesn't sit in the same class as either of those. I think it works well with subtle overdrive, but I've never really liked it in a high gain setting by itself.
- If I had to do it again, I would probably lean towards either a cooler bridge, or hotter middle/neck like you're talking about.
- As another consideration to Gilmour mod, check out the Freeway 5b5 Switch

In 2008 I put the Red/Silver/Blue singles set in a late 90s strat. It took me a while (years of tinkering) to get that guitar to sound balanced in a way that I actually liked. I found that changing the volume pot brought the silver and blue to where I wanted them, but then the red was incredibly shrill, I was constantly rolling off after switching into the bridge position. I played with heights, cap values, pot values...wasn't saavy enough for a while to try a series resistor on the bridge.

On switching, I ended up putting the Freeway 5b5 in and I will say these pickups work really, really well with creating five new unique tones with the series/parallel combinations. I can't say the same for the duncan hot rails I have hooked up to one of these in another instrument. Because each of the pickups is "strongly flavored" to begin with, the combinations actually create a nice variety from a very warm/fat "classic big band comping" tone, to some positions that work very well with high gain without being muddy or shrill. I actually have both tone knobs disconnected now because the 3 or 4 positions I typically use get the job done on their own. I also never use the bridge only position anymore.

I've mentioned this on other threads where the Freeway comes up, and while it's an awesome product that unlocks combinations with a single switch, anytime the guitar goes in the case and comes back out a while later I have to remind myself which positions have the "stuff" I want. There is something to be said for finding a way keep your controls simple while getting the combinations you want (i.e. regular super switch wired up as needed).

 

[Hodgo]

I’m planning out an S-type partscaster, leaning towards the Dinkycaster or Soloist, might just do a normal Strat but I don’t like the placement of the volume knob. I understand Warmoth doesn’t do holes for micro switches on the pickguard and I need to do that myself, but it seems like an easy task.

If you’re not using all of the original holes, a small switch can be made to fit snug inside a pot hole via a washer and dress nut.

I’d also like the "Gilmour Switch" option to have neck and bridge pickups together. That’s an essential mod to any Strat in my opinion, and makes pairing the Bridge and Neck that much more difficult.

Be aware there are many ways to skin that cat other than the Gilmour mod - superswitches (if there’s another position you don’t use you want to replace), blend pots, or a Freeway switch for example.

I like the idea of "versatility" but realistically know I’m not going to play Wes Montgomery and Cryptopsy on the same guitar.

I’d argue it’s more about the amp than the guitar here - especially if you have an EQ pedal in front of the amp. Many of today’s modelers can make that a reality only a foot switch away.

I’m not really familiar with Laces, so I can’t help you pick out a specific model, but what I can say is it seems awfully roundabout to try to use Laces to mimic tones achieved with vintage pickups. I definitely agree you’re leaning HSS, but I read this as you don’t plan to have the humbucker coils in series… IMHO that’s antithetical to your goal. Many of your influences played humbuckers in regular series config.

If anything, I think you go Red/HotGold/HotGold, no dually required.

Why?

Well, your single coil heroes almost all use one of two pickups - early 60s strats or late 60s (Grey bottom) Strats. That seems to be what the HotGold is designed to emulate.

Your alt/metal influences are a little more varied… Kurt loved the Duncan JB, Rivers and Glenn Tipton played Duncan Super Distortions, KK played PAFs, and Billy Corgan had a Lace Red in the bridge of his early Strat. Since you listed the Pumpkins first, I’m guessing Red (and a Big Muff) is your best bet.

 

[Hodgo]

There is something to be said for finding a way keep your controls simple while getting the combinations you want (i.e. regular super switch wired up as needed).

This is where I have ended up after years of experimentation with every odd onboard control possible. I still have a crazy schematic for a four pickup Jaguar I intended to build, but it will probably never see the light of day because it would be more of a curiosity than a tool.

 

[ThisIsHuhWow404]

In 2008 I put the Red/Silver/Blue singles set in a late 90s strat. It took me a while (years of tinkering) to get that guitar to sound balanced in a way that I actually liked. I found that changing the volume pot brought the silver and blue to where I wanted them, but then the red was incredibly shrill, I was constantly rolling off after switching into the bridge position. I played with heights, cap values, pot values...wasn't saavy enough for a while to try a series resistor on the bridge.

From what I can tell, reasons like this are why so many avid Lace fans say the TBX pots/Clapton preamp circuit are so essential. The pickups and that circuitry were made for the purpose of being paired with one another. Since their business partnership ended, Fender has continued selling the components as the "Mid-Boost kit" for other pickups, and Lace still exists making the Sensor pickups, but people forgot they were supposed to be the same kit.

It would be like if the partnership between Apple and Foxconn ended, but Foxconn continued manufacturing the M-Series chips exactly the same as they always were, and then 20 years later people were putting M-Series chips in their Windows machines based on name recognition and complaining about how they couldn’t get their video games to work.

Of course, Fender only ever used Gold, Red, Blue and Silver. I’m not sure if the Emerald, Purple or Hot Gold still need the Mid-Boost Kit.

 

[ThisIsHuhWow404]

I’m not really familiar with Laces, so I can’t help you pick out a specific model, but what I can say is it seems awfully roundabout to try to use Laces to mimic tones achieved with vintage pickups. I definitely agree you’re leaning HSS, but I read this as you don’t plan to have the humbucker coils in series… IMHO that’s antithetical to your goal. Many of your influences played humbuckers in regular series config.

I think I may have gotten confused, and the Duallys are in series when in Humbucker mode. It’s just that the coil split or coil tap mode isn’t really a split/tap as much as it is an actual single coil pickup. There’s some suggestion the Red/Red sounds like an EMG 81 as a Humbucker, but I’m skeptical (this was the bridge pickup in Jonny Greenwood’s Tele, for example).

If anything, I think you go Red/HotGold/HotGold, no dually required.

Why?

Well, your single coil heroes almost all use one of two pickups - early 60s strats or late 60s (Grey bottom) Strats. That seems to be what the HotGold is designed to emulate.

RedBlue/HotGold/HotGold is one of my top considerations. If my understanding of the schematics of the Red/Blue is correct, that would make it a PAF, JB, and some other mysterious hot Humbucker tone in one. Like a bizarro world passive version of the Fishman Fluence Classic bridge pickup.

Your alt/metal influences are a little more varied… Kurt loved the Duncan JB, Rivers and Glenn Tipton played Duncan Super Distortions, KK played PAFs, and Billy Corgan had a Lace Red in the bridge of his early Strat. Since you listed the Pumpkins first, I’m guessing Red (and a Big Muff) is your best bet.

I’m pretty sure Corgan was the first person I listed because he’s the first guitarist most would think of when talking about the Lace Red/Silver/Blue set, which was fresh on my mind. I’m not trying to explicitly "chase the Siamese Dream tone" or anything. Plus, Equipboard makes it seem like James Iha used a Fender Bronco and a Les Paul Custom at that time so there’s still be a lot of ground to cover,

 

[Hodgo]

Ah, got it. RedBlue/HotGold/HotGold makes sense to me. I would probably avoid ever running the HB in series now that I’ve read about it - I’d either put a coil select on a switch somewhere so it’s always in red or blue mode, or I would put in a superswitch and run Red when the pickup is solo/Blue in combination positions.

What I don’t get is why the 60s (HotGold) pickup is hotter than the 50s (Gold) pickup. That’s incongruous with what actually happened with Fender in the CBS era - autowinders were introduced and less turns of wire made it onto the bobbins, and as a result they were generally a little lower in output with a higher reso peak.

You know another option would be HHH, RedBlue/GoldHotGold/GoldHotGold with a master switch to turn the guitar from hot (Red/HotGold/HotGold) mode to cool (Blue/Gold/Gold) mode…

 

[db82]

From what I can tell, reasons like this are why so many avid Lace fans say the TBX pots/Clapton preamp circuit are so essential. The pickups and that circuitry were made for the purpose of being paired with one another. Since their business partnership ended, Fender has continued selling the components as the "Mid-Boost kit" for other pickups, and Lace still exists making the Sensor pickups, but people forgot they were supposed to be the same kit.

This adds up big time. Can we rewind 17 years?

 

[ThisIsHuhWow404]

A did a bit more reading up on the Fender’s premium offerings from the 90s. Here’s what I’ve found.

*The Mid-Boost circuitry was only on the Clapton Signature model and the Buddy Guy signature model, never the Plus or Ultra models. It replaces one of the tone knobs, and essentially puts an overdrive pedal in your guitar. It was intended to replicate the "Woman Tone" that Clapton got out of his SG when he was in Cream, but in a Stratocaster. I don’t need this. I already have an SG, and the wiring is a little too complicated for my comfort zone. Also of note is that Ed O’Brien of Radiohead used the Clapton Strat on The Bends and OK Computer.
*The Red/Red Dually was in the bridge position on some of the Ultra and Ultra Plus Strats. I’m still leaning towards Red/Blue.
*The Plus and Ultra Strats were usually wired so position 3 would be Neck+Bridge. There was no way to get the middle pickup by itself. I could either get a Superswitch and do this faithfully or get the Free-Way and go wild with it.

I might settle on RedBlue/Silver/Emerald. That’s still a pretty "Stratty" setup, just not as "vintage" as I originally envisioned. I don’t think I’d have much trouble getting the Shine On You Crazy Diamond, Electricladyland or Blood Sugar Sex Magic tones out of the Emerald and Silver. It might even be better than Gold.

In some ways this might not be much different than being some guy in the 80s who replaced the bridge pickup on his Strat with a JB. That’s what I’d really consider a true "Fat Strat."

Red and Blue are known to play nice with Silver, and Emerald is known to play nice with Silver. The only bit of contention is how the Emerald is going to play with the Red and Blue in Gilmour Switch mode. The Gold and Hot Gold seem to be exclusive to themselves and there’s nothing out there in terms of documentation of how well they play with other colors, with the sole exception of Lace offering a Blue/Gold Dually.

 

[ThisIsHuhWow404]

What I don’t get is why the 60s (HotGold) pickup is hotter than the 50s (Gold) pickup. That’s incongruous with what actually happened with Fender in the CBS era - autowinders were introduced and less turns of wire made it onto the bobbins, and as a result they were generally a little lower in output with a higher reso peak.

On Lace’s website they list artists to think of when trying to decide on colors. Gold and Hold Gold both list Clapton and Jeff Beck. The page for Gold talks about how they sound like vintage Strat pickups, and then the page for Hot Gold talks a lot about how noiseless they are rather than what they sound like.

I’m getting the impression that "Hot Gold" is actually supposed to be "Updated more noiseless MKII version of Lace Sensor Gold" rather than "A hotter version of Lace Sensor Gold."

You know another option would be HHH, RedBlue/GoldHotGold/GoldHotGold with a master switch to turn the guitar from hot (Red/HotGold/HotGold) mode to cool (Blue/Gold/Gold) mode…

I was briefly considering HHH for a "Like Pete Townsend’s Les Paul but as a Strat" but decided it would be too complicated and possibly gaudy looking.

RedBlue/GoldGold/BlueGold probably would have been the most logical configuration for HHH.

 

[Hodgo]

Makes sense. Like I said I’m not intimately familiar with Laces products… they seem interesting but I’m just not interested pickups with brand names printed on them. Looking at you, Seymour!

 

[ThisIsHuhWow404]

@Hodgo Have you seen Lace’s Alumitone pickups, their other line Don Lace developed after the Sensors? The whole thing is just a giant aluminum magnet, no copper wire winding, and some of them don’t have branding on them depending on which color you get.

 

[Hodgo]

Yep - @AleForce1 did an awesome Methany inspired jazz VIP build not too long ago with a set of the Alumitones. Those are very cool.

 

[Spud]

I may be in the minority, but I did not care for the all gold strat set I had. Gone. Maybe good for effects but the base tones were uninspiring to me.

 

[ThisIsHuhWow404]

I may be in the minority, but I did not care for the all gold strat set I had. Gone. Maybe good for effects but the base tones were uninspiring to me.

The Lace fanboy would say "you didn’t like them because you didn’t have TBX tone pots!"

 

[Spud]

The Lace fanboy would say "you didn’t like them because you didn’t have TBX tone pots!"

Could be, but in this instance I purchased a new pre-wired Lace pickguard. If they didn't put their best foot forward in a shop build thats on them.

 

[Rick]

I'd go with the classics. I'd recommend looking at some books from A.R. Duchossoir and 1001 guitars to dream of playing before you die by Burrows, and see what went into the originals.

 

[Spud]

I'd go with the classics. I'd recommend looking at some books from A.R. Duchossoir and 1001 guitars to dream of playing before you die by Burrows, and see what went into the originals.

I would re read "Naked Lunch" by William S Burrows

 

[Hodgo]

I would re read "Naked Lunch" by William S Burrows

Steely Dan fan eh?

 

[Rick]

Every night I read something to put me to sleep. I've been trying to get thru the Power Broker, by Carro, but it's not a page turner. So I've gone back to re-reading Ian Fleming's ouvre. Last night I got to the point in Goldfinger where Bond is on the plane and P---- Galore sends him a note that she's with him ... I expect Mr. G to pass away soon, though for some reason I only remember how he died in the movie .... tonight I'll take a look at what the strat book says on Lace Sensors ...