Korina body + Maple top?

[AllHailDIO]

Hello everyone.  Does anyone have any experience w/ Korina w/ a Maple top?  I know woods sometimes fight each other's frequencies so its always best to hear from experience rather than assume "on paper".

Will be paired with a Roasted Maple neck, Wenge or Ebony fretboard, and Stainless Steel frets.  Originally wanted Alder but the body I want requires a top and I figured Alder + Maple top would be too bright.  Nevertheless, I do want a bright sound, mainly for lead, that'll cut thru a busy mix. 

I'll be playing w/ a SD Distortion.  High-gain progressive stuff; anything from Andy Timmons to brutal metal arty07:

 

[Cagey]

I have a body with that combination. Can't say as you can tell. There's a widespread belief in the electric guitar world that body wood species makes a lotta difference in the character of the guitar (where it doesn't), but that's largely just a carryover from the acoustic guitar world (where it does). There's just too much mass in an electric guitar body for subtleties like wood species or finish type to have an effect. Where you'll get the most influence is from the pickups, neck and bridge.

 

[Snake]

I am in the camp that believes wood does make a tonal difference in electric guitars.

I think a black korina body with a maple cap when combined with either a roasted maple neck or a wenge neck will be a nicely balanced instrument. Keep in mind black korina is typically not all that much darker than alder. Alder is a pretty balanced wood in itself with a slight leaning towards the brighter side. Black korina should be a bit warmer with bigger lows and that's about it. It is kinda in the middle of mahogany and alder. If you want alder, go with alder in this case.

Keep in mind we are talking about wood so when discussing tonal properties we are always speaking "generally". Wood pieces vary within the same species and even have variations from pieces of the same tree! For example, I have a chambered black korina body with a black korina top that is darker in nature than one of my chambered mahogany bodies with a maple cap. I have played other black korina bodies that are brighter and more mid balanced.

There are a lot of factors at play here including the pickups, type of bridge, bridge materials, strings, and electronics (pots, caps, etc) besides wood. Wood is only part of the equation. That being said, physics teaches us that any materials coming into contact with the vibrating string can color the frequency response. Obviously this is fingers, pick, bridge, tuners and of course since the tuning machines and bridge also transfer vibrations it is only logical to understand the impact wood can also have on this process. This is only taking into consideration the vibrating physics too, there are many unknown factors too.

A basic test is take the same wiring harness out of a guitar with the same exact bridge parts (not even the same brand and type but the actual parts themselves) and transfer them into a guitar with different woods. There is a difference to be heard. Sometimes it is more subtle than other times but there is a difference. Try it sometime.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter so much though. What matters the most is it is going to be your guitar and you have to be happy with it. The guitar should be a source of inspiration and something that begs you to play it every minute you can. That's the biggest factor of all!

 

[dmraco]

I have several.  Behaves Like a Les paul

 

[AllHailDIO]

Thank you for the information everyone!

From my experience, I'm also in the tonewood camp especially when playing low gain.  I understand that its less distinguishable w/ certain pickups especially higher output but from my experience, a JB, for example, reacts and sounds much differently in Mahogany + Maple than it does in Alder.  Plus, I play 1-3 pedals, all transparent, into an amp so I don't lose much tone.

Currently, my lead guitar is an SG.  I feel its trebly but they are actually at a lower resonance peak, and dditionally, since theres so much of the fundamental to the notes, its more of a punch and midrange peak rather than an UPPER midrange scream.  I want it shifted up a bit higher into the upper mids (hopefully the Distortion will do). 

From my experience, if a guitar doesn't resonate certain frequencies, even if the pickups voicing would have that frequency response, the pickups would not sustain nor have the attack as it would if the guitar did in fact resonate those frequencies. Same goes w/ amps and loudspeakers.

To add to what was said, I actually believe tonewood has more effect than hardware.  I've tried aluminum and brass stop tails, and zinc and steel trem blocks, and the difference is much smaller than an Mahogany vs Alder vs Basswood.  I feel the tone begins w/ the amp and its loudspeaker, the tonewoods, working together w/ the pickups, then the plectrum material and thickness, gauge of strings and its freshness, and then maybe hardware.  Of course, just a hypothesis.

Now that we have discussed theory and all, and gotten that out of the way...

I have little experience w/ Korina but plenty w/ Les Pauls.  So the attack is pretty chewy and mids are pretty thick?  Doesn't sound like something I want...  What kind of neck do you have w/ the Korina, DMRACO?

 

[ChristopherG]

A friend of mine does a really good demonstration of a related controversy. "Is string through better than top load for tone, sustain, etc." He's a physics teacher/guitar player. Takes a string through body and uses a laser gizmo to measure string vibration in front of and behind the saddles. I can't remember exactly, but something like 90-95% of the vibration is stopped at the saddle so only 10-5% of the energy is transfered to the body. Now that vibration is spread out through a dense hunk of wood which is going to soak up virtually all of the energy. The tiny bit of vibration that makes it back to the string would then have to make it past the saddle--or all the way up the neck, up through a mechanical winding device, etc--to have any affect at all at all. Because. Of. The. Way. Pickups. Work.

Now given all that, how much could wood species really contribute to the plugged in sound of the guitar?

It is like wine tasting. People taste what they expect to taste and they hear what they expect to hear. Studies have shown that "wine experts" cannot reliably distinguish between a 50 dollar bottle of wine and a 500 dollar bottle of wine. I have seen several demonstrations--though not rigorous enough to be called studies--that showed that "tone experts" are just as full of s@#$ about electric guitars.

 

[Snake]

Well, it's harder to notice the differences on woods that are similar or in the similar tonal range but an example that is unmistakably different is easy to find.

Go play a Gibson Les Paul Studio without a maple cap, I don't know, from the mid-2000's. Standard mahogany body, mahogany neck with a rosewood fretboard. Play 3 of them if you can find them just to get a good sample.

Now, if you can find one, check out the early 2000's voodoo Les Paul with a swamp ash body, mahogany neck and ebony fretboard.

Finally, if you can find one, check out one of the 2009 Gibson Raw Power Les Pauls. All maple body, all maple neck. Huge differences tonally speaking from the studios and it doesn't take any kind of science experiment to figure that out!

To me, that is the biggest differences you will hear when the two woods are on the opposite of the "tonal spectrum" it becomes very obvious.

 

[AllHailDIO]

For sure, the Raw Power SG and regular SG sound way different.  An Epiphone Les Paul w/o a Maple cap sounds different from a Gibson Les Paul w/ a Maple Cap, and as well as chambered vs solid body.  But the latter two, I would need to A/B them, otherwise, I don't think I would notice off hand.

I can definitely tell tonewoods apart when they are quite different as you mentioned Snake.  I'm sure most people will too.  But yes, Pine vs Poplar vs Alder vs sometimes certain pieces of Swamp Ash, is hard to distinguish.

Since I'm planning to build a Warmoth guitar, I want to take every variable into consideration.  I always buy a guitar used for about $300-650.  I never bought a guitar more than that.  This guitar will be over $1k so I do indeed want it to be perfect even in the most slightest ways, otherwise I'll feel negligent w/ my money and to the guitar itself.

That said, I have zero experience w/ Korina.  Is it that similar to Mahogany especially w/ a Maple cap?  From videos that I've listened, Korina sounded quite different from Mahogany.  It's airy which reminds me more like Alder.  Has way less bass, maybe as much as Alder vs Mahogany.  Just seems to have more mids than Alder w/ a smoother high end and about the same amount of attack.  Some reason, I thought it was more like Alder than Mahogany, contrary to general consensus. 

With that said, and theory aside, does anyone have any personal experience w/ Korina + Maple top?  I know that tonewood can be assumed "on paper" what it "may" sound like, but does anyone have actual experience?  And what neck wood was used?  I have already made my conclusion on the importance of tonewood especially if I'm dropping a huge wad of cash, so no need to convince me otherwise.

If anything, I may just go w/ what I know and pick a different body, and just go w/ Alder  :headbang1:

 

[Cagey]

You guys are not only comparing similar guitars with different neck woods, you're using examples with unusual attachment designs. SG necks are barely attached to their bodies, LP necks are deeply buried, they're both glued, and everything else is a bolt-on lap joint. So, as usual, it comes back to the neck, not the body.

As for Maple over Korina, as I said earlier, I have one. It's a carved top Tele, and it sounds great. But, I attribute that to the Maple neck and the Dream 180 pickups I used. If I'd have put a Mahogany neck on it, it would be "warmer" or "darker" or whatever you wanna call it. If I'd have used single coils instead of humbuckers, it would be more articulate than it is, having more high end. I have several other carved-top Teles here, but they're all made out of different species woods for the bodies and necks both, and they all use different pickups, so really you can't tell what's what.

One thing I'm pretty confident about, though, is the body isn't the thing. Too much mass. The string vibrations just aren't going to have much influence on it and vice-versa, and the pickups aren't listening to the body anyway. They're listening to the strings. In order for the body to have an influence, it would have to absorb string vibrations, and they just don't have that much force behind them to do that.

Now, I'm not saying the body has NO influence. I'm sure it does. Otherwise, bridge mounts wouldn't matter and some neck joints wouldn't be possible. I'm just saying it's not nearly as influential as it's given credit for. Bodies made of exotic woods are largely for appearance, not performance.

 

[ChristopherG]

One of these days when I have more money than sense, I am going to buy--theoretically--identical strat bodies in every wood offered by Warmoth. Then buy and kit out a single neck and pickguard. Something uber simple. One pickup straight out to a jack--with a cap and resister to deharsh it. One bridge. Then generate recordings with these attached to the different bodies. Then get even richer making bets with "tone aficionados".

 

[Snake]

One of these days when I have more money than sense, I am going to buy--theoretically--identical strat bodies in every wood offered by Warmoth. Then buy and kit out a single neck and pickguard. Something uber simple. One pickup straight out to a jack--with a cap and resister to deharsh it. One bridge. Then generate recordings with these attached to the different bodies. Then get even richer making bets with "tone aficionados".

It's funny you mention that. I know a guy who did that and I matched all the recordings correctly with their respective woods/guitars. Some people hear it, some people don't.

 

[Snake]

You guys are not only comparing similar guitars with different neck woods, you're using examples with unusual attachment designs. SG necks are barely attached to their bodies, LP necks are deeply buried, they're both glued, and everything else is a bolt-on lap joint. So, as usual, it comes back to the neck, not the body.

As for Maple over Korina, as I said earlier, I have one. It's a carved top Tele, and it sounds great. But, I attribute that to the Maple neck and the Dream 180 pickups I used. If I'd have put a Mahogany neck on it, it would be "warmer" or "darker" or whatever you wanna call it. If I'd have used single coils instead of humbuckers, it would be more articulate than it is, having more high end. I have several other carved-top Teles here, but they're all made out of different species woods for the bodies and necks both, and they all use different pickups, so really you can't tell what's what.

One thing I'm pretty confident about, though, is the body isn't the thing. Too much mass. The string vibrations just aren't going to have much influence on it and vice-versa, and the pickups aren't listening to the body anyway. They're listening to the strings. In order for the body to have an influence, it would have to absorb string vibrations, and they just don't have that much force behind them to do that.

Now, I'm not saying the body has NO influence. I'm sure it does. Otherwise, bridge mounts wouldn't matter and some neck joints wouldn't be possible. I'm just saying it's not nearly as influential as it's given credit for. Bodies made of exotic woods are largely for appearance, not performance.

That's why I mentioned to try all Les Pauls made from different woods from Gibson. They all have identical neck joints. It's a great way to do the exact kind of comparison we are talking about.

Another way all bolt-on neck guitars too, but the idea is to keep the build type, body shape, neck joint type, etc. the same for the comparison.

I do agree though, IME the neck has more of an impact on tone than the body.

 

[AllHailDIO]

I know from experience that scale length has effect on tone, mostly how tight/punchy the attack is especially in the lower frequencies, but with neck joint construction, Cagey, I only know (more or less) what I've read: bolt-on has more "attack" which I figure is contributed to the metal screws, and glued-on, especially deep-set, has more sustain w/ generally less attack.  I remember having a Maple neck-thru w/ Mahogany wings in 25.5 scale with massive sustain but did not have as much attack as one would assume from Maple.  A Maple bolt-on to Alder had more snap even w/ a double humbucker config. 

A Maple neck on a Mahogany Strat/RG, Basswood Strat/RG, etc, or Maple neck-thru w/ Mahogany wings, all sound different enough to me to say that body wood has enough importance to not downplay it.  Plus, like I said, its a huge wad of cash that I would be spending w/ Warmoth.  I'm not going to be negligent about how I spend it and am considering even the smallest variable such as tonewood.  If I have the choice, why not be choosy, right? 

Anyway, sorry everyone, I had no intentions of opening this old can of worms about tonewood.  I really was just interested in personal experience about this combo but I guess by asking, the theory comes within the territory.  I apologize.  With that said...

So Cagey, I also plan on using a maple neck.  Can you describe the tone of your Tele?  "Good" is good and all but that leaves a lot to interpretation  :icon_tongue:  Anything particularly surprising/different compared to Alder Teles?  Also, have you tried any other pickups besides the Dream 180?  Or have Dream 180s in another guitar to make a comparison?  But most importantly, how thick is that Maple cap?  Idk if your Tele is a carved top or just has a thick flat cap.  I apologize for not being clear but when I say Maple top, I mean 3/4" thick.

 

[AllHailDIO]

One of these days when I have more money than sense, I am going to buy--theoretically--identical strat bodies in every wood offered by Warmoth. Then buy and kit out a single neck and pickguard. Something uber simple. One pickup straight out to a jack--with a cap and resister to deharsh it. One bridge. Then generate recordings with these attached to the different bodies. Then get even richer making bets with "tone aficionados".

See, that'd be cool because you're using the SAME neck as opposed to a video like Anderson / Chapman who did a video w/ Swamp Ash + Maple neck and Mahogany + Maple neck, same pickup models, but they were two different maple necks and different pickups (albeit the same model).

Also do necks on a single body or two.  Wenge, Padouk, etc, on an Alder body and Mahogany body.  That'd be sweet.

Maybe you should start a GoFundMe page  :sign13:  :laughing7:

 

[ChristopherG]

Well you would want to eliminate as many variables as possible.

So now that I think about it, I would also leave the bodies unfinished and use one of the solderless pickup systems out there. I should start a go-fund-me campaign. "Donate to end the solid body tonewood debate once and for all!!"

Will spend tomorrow on the builder to see how much I need to raise.

 

[AllHailDIO]

Haha totally do it. Gotta get a Royer 101 and an interface with a Burr Brown converter too!

You don't even need to do all the body woods, at least as first, like Walnut and other uncommon oddities. I think most wouldbe happy with just Alder, Mahogany, Korina, Swamp Ash, and Basswood.

:hello2:

 

[Cagey]

So Cagey, I also plan on using a maple neck.  Can you describe the tone of your Tele?  "Good" is good and all but that leaves a lot to interpretation  :icon_tongue:  Anything particularly surprising/different compared to Alder Teles?  Also, have you tried any other pickups besides the Dream 180?  Or have Dream 180s in another guitar to make a comparison?  But most importantly, how thick is that Maple cap?  Idk if your Tele is a carved top or just has a thick flat cap.  I apologize for not being clear but when I say Maple top, I mean 3/4" thick.

It's a carved-top Tele, and the top is 3/4" Maple over a Black Korina carcass. It also has an opaque finish on it, which is sorta bizarre. Why order an exotic wood and cover it up? But, I bought it used; I didn't order it that way.

To me, the tone is "even", but that's a worthless observation. In the immortal words of somebody: "talking about tone is like dancing about architecture". I don't know what to tell you that will mean anything. You can read what the manufacturer has to say about them here, but if that gives you any idea of what to expect then you're much more astute and inductive than I am. I tend to pick pickups and install them based on little more than "Hmmm... I wonder..." because no amount of description gives you any idea and all guitars sound different. You never know what you're going to end up with until you plug the little rascal in.

I haven't used the Dream 180s in anything else of mine, but I did put a set into someone else's Tele that was just a block of Alder with a typical Tele bridge and a Pau Ferro neck. They sounded slightly "warmer" in that fiddle, but that's a Pau Ferro vs. Maple neck for you. 

Incidentally, I suspect thick Maple tops change tone because they provide a firmer base to mount the bridge to, which keeps it from absorbing some frequencies, not because it changes the body's 'resonance' or 'mojo' or whatever majik body wood is supposed to impart.

 

[AllHailDIO]

Thank you Cagey, that's all very helpful.  I definitely don't want a Maple cap anymore (because of a new reason: weight).  Originally, that would mean I would get an Alder flat top, but you made Korina sound appealing haha.  I think I'll get Alder though for its snappier attack. I'm afraid Korina's attack is too mellow like Mahogany.  My Mahogany RG isn't very snappy even w/ its Maple neck, to my disappointment.  I suppose the Rosewood fb doesn't help but you'd think a bolt-on 25.5" scale would be snappy.

I'm going to do research on a new topic and if nothing comes up, a new thread.  I'm curious about Alder body + Wenge neck + Ebony fb.  I want more fundamental punch that Maple seem to lack, but I hope Wenge has enough upper-mids to cut through. 

I kind of wish I could have a thin Wenge body because from what I read, I think I'd prefer the feel of Roasted Maple over Wenge. 

Haha, as you can tell, I'm still in the drawing stages... So many ideas! So many questions!

 

[musicispeace]

I have chambered poplar with a maple top (which I remain convinced must have been a canceled build order at Warmoth), Swamp Ash and Alder in Warmoth strats. All similar vintage output and style pickups. Maple necks with not maple fingerboards. I, thus far, am not detecting any big difference based on body woods. Personally I've stopped worrying about body wood. Necks though I would agree with those who think the neck has a bigger influence. I have a Yamaha Pacifica HSS strat with probably a basswood body that is still THE brightest toned guitar I have. I keep it because I still like how it sounds. Paid $79 second hand for it. Does country like a great Tele.