Hey Gregg...

[Xplorervoodoo]

...I remember you mentioning a while back about iron cross inlays.  Would you be able to provide an image of those?  If they are more elaborate than the celtic cross inlays, I might try to feature the iron crosses on all my future builds.  :laughing7:

 

[dbw]

Yes, maybe we can get swastika inlays next.    :icon_scratch:  Why would you want iron crosses on your guitar???

 

[Xplorervoodoo]

Yes, maybe we can get swastika inlays next.    :icon_scratch:  Why would you want iron crosses on your guitar???

I've always liked the looks of elaborate crosses, and the iron crosses share that interest.  And I know it probably wasn't intended for offense, but I don't appreciate the nazi reference, that wasn't cool at all...

 

[riverbluff]

The Iron cross is also popular on alot of bikes (harley davidson mostly).  They are sharp looking and would be unique.

 

[Phrygian]

Yes, maybe we can get swastika inlays next.    :icon_scratch:  Why would you want iron crosses on your guitar???

I've always liked the looks of elaborate crosses, and the iron crosses share that interest.  And I know it probably wasn't intended for offense, but I don't appreciate the nazi reference, that wasn't cool at all...

What else would you expect from someone with that avatar?

 

[guitlouie]

A historical note,  the Iron Cross as a symbol goes back waaaaay farther than the Nazis.  

 

[dbw]

I've always liked the looks of elaborate crosses, and the iron crosses share that interest.  And I know it probably wasn't intended for offense, but I don't appreciate the nazi reference, that wasn't cool at all...

I'm truly sorry, Xplorer.  I did NOT mean to imply you're a Nazi or anything of the sort.  It's just the first association I had with that symbol.  It's true it's used in other contexts too.  I didn't mean to call you a racist or anything.  I really apologize. 

The Iron cross is also popular on alot of bikes (harley davidson mostly).

Good point riverbluff... I found an interesting article about this (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Germany-141/Iron-Cross.htm); here's a quote:

American veterans who upon returning from the war found they had lost their jobs - and often also their wives - formed the first biker gangs (e.g. Hells Angels) and protested and rebelled against the established society. But not until the 1960s did the Iron Cross become a symbol for the chopper world. The connotations of freedom and courage might have been a factor, the 'Germanness' (and thus perceived evilness) was of value for shock effect with mainstream society - like German army helmets. The fact that German army motorcycles sported the symbol might have played a role here also.

Nowadays the IC has become a symbol for chopper riders in the US (Note: not in Germany!).

So the Nazi usage and the bikers' usage are connected but divergent.

guitlouie,

A historical note,  the Iron Cross as a symbol goes back waaaaay farther than the Nazis. 

That's true, but the swastika goes back further still.  It's still taboo in the West, especially in Germany and Austria, but in India (where it has been used for millennia) it does not have the negative connotation it does here.  I feel similarly about the iron cross.  I was raised Jewish (both of my dad's parents are survivors) and so I'm probably more sensitive to Nazi symbols than most people, and among different cultures (e.g. biker culture) it does not have the connotation I associate with it.

I'd never get iron crosses on a guitar myself, but I can understand the appeal they have, and that they have taken on many different meanings over the years.  It was a kneejerk reaction and I'm really sorry.  If Warmoth offers iron crosses I will not boycott them or anything, they're just not for me, any more than the normal Christian crosses are.  (For the record, if they offered swastikas, I WOULD boycott!)

Finally I'd like to say:

What else would you expect from someone with that avatar?

Huh???  :icon_scratch:

 

[Xplorervoodoo]

It's ok, dbw, I understand how you could be sensitive to those symbols.  I appreciate your apology, and assure you that I have no nazi interest whatsoever.  I just think crosses look cool  arty07:

Cheers, brother  ccasion14:

 

[Rick]

Nazi symbols would be a hard sell for warmoth.
Christian symbols don't have the same problem.  So how about a fish inlay?

 

[simple]

Not sure of the state of the iron cross inlays. I'll check it out and see where we're at with those on Monday.

 

[ildar]

Nazi symbols would be a hard sell for warmoth.
Christian symbols don't have the same problem.  So how about a fish inlay?

Nazis consider(ed) themselves to be Christians.
Sorry for the OT.

 

[neilium]

Yes, maybe we can get swastika inlays next.    :icon_scratch:  Why would you want iron crosses on your guitar???

Maybe this says something about my age, but when I see an Iron Cross, I don't think Nazi; I think dumb, cartoonish biker. Like Eric Von Zipper from Beach Blanket Bingo.

Swastikas go wayyyy wayyy back, too. It's a sanskrit character, and IIRC a symbol used by many pre-Columbian cultures. Prior to WWII, members of the Girls' Club of America wore swastika lapel pins. There were swastika brand peaches. Take a ride on the Elevated in Chicago, and you'll see hundreds of them in the marble and granite facades of Sullivan's buildings.

Sorry to go way off topic, but it's amazing how thousands of years of meaning and nuance in a symbol can be wiped out by one profoundly evil jerk. Granted, said jerk is responsible for far greater tragedies.

 

[stormbringer]

FYI - the so called 'swastika', is correctly termed - Fylfot Cross and symbolizes the whole (centre) and each of the four elements (the arms) made up of corresponding zodiac signs relating to the element it belongs too. As per the Kabbalah...

WAY before nazi's...

 

[dbw]

Swastika is the Sanskrit name for the symbol.  The Fylfot Cross is different, it has shorter arms.  Also, please don't invoke kabbalah; I can assure you that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[stormbringer]

Also, please don't invoke kabbalah; I can assure you that you don't know what you're talking about.

I can assure you that you are very wrong in that regard...

 

[dbw]

Are you Bar Mitzvah?  Are you at least 40 years old?  Have you studied Talmud and the Torah?  These are the traditional requirements for studying the Zohar... everyone else is considered too immature to properly understand it.  Some sources say men were required to memorize the Talmud before they could begin studying the Zohar.  Maybe you've read through some Kabbalistic texts but I doubt if there are more than a handful of people alive today with a thorough grasp of Jewish mysticism in the proper context, and probably none who are not Orthodox Jews.  If you're one of them, I stand corrected.  I am certainly not among them but I get annoyed when people claim they understand Kabbalah, because it's generally not true.  Not being a religious man myself, I was never attracted to mysticism, but I do appreciate the Jewish scholarly tradition which has contributed so much to my life and philosophies, and I hate how it's being diluted today with pop-culture "Kabbalists" like Madonna.

Anyway, I don't mean to antagonize everyone on the board, as I've unfortunately succeeded in doing over the past couple of days.  Cheers, stormbringer, let's not dwell on it outside of this thread.  ccasion14:

 

[Nando Vallart]

Let's stop fighting and see a good point of people from Israel!
I want go there!
http://damncoolpics.blogspot.com/2008/03/girls-of-israeli-army.html

 

[dbw]

http://damncoolpics.blogspot.com/2008/03/girls-of-israeli-army.html

Yum 

 

[stormbringer]

Fair enough dbw... Nonsense, there is no fighting going on here, it's all good, and I have been to Isreal, it is very nice. I recommend you visit should you ever get the chance.

To answer some of your questions... To begin with, lets just say I am definately over 40 years old, so I have been around the block once or twice. I, like you, do not consider myself to be 'religious', although I am an ordained minister. That being said, I am very spiritual and consider my spirituality my only passion greater than music. I have in fact read many sacred texts over the years including your aforementioned Talmud and Torah, as well as Sepher Yetzirah, The Dhammapada, The Bhagavad Gita, The Key of Solomon the King,The Upanishads, The Book of Thoth, The Book of Tokens (as well as all other Paul Foster Case materials), The Kybalion, and countless other books involving enlightenment and/or ascension. I have studied Enochian, FOL (and have in fact spent time with Drunvalo Melchizedek at Bastyr University), ToL, Sacred Geometry, Tai Chi Chi Kung, OTO, AA, B.O.T.A., the works of Tashira Tachi-ren, Isreal Regardie, Eliphas Levi, Gurdjieff, Dion Fortune, Franz Bardon, Denning and Phillips, Gregg Braden, and many others. I have studied to a high level, the arts of Tarot, Scrying, and Meditations (including the full Merkaba Meditation to a very accomplished level). I currently own more than 600 various manuscripts and documents, some dating back over 400 years, and am in possession of a first printing of all 10 volumes of the Equinox. In fact, I pride myself in the library I have assembled.

I do not feel you have to be an Orthodox Jew (or any particular race or creed for that matter - while I was stationed in Hawaii in the 80's, I was even welcomed with open arms into the world of the Kahuna - as well as time spent with Native Americans - being partly Blackfoot myself) to enjoy the wisdom and insight found within the Kabbalah and Gematria or any of the volumes of material that can be had, but I too, do not enjoy people who wish to sensationalize themselves within the embodiment of philosophy. It takes many years and lifetimes to even grasp a few gems that have been provided us and this is only if you approach it with an open mind and open heart. Throughout my years I have sought out many of these gems and while my current spiritual beliefs revolve mostly around Taoism, I still find things such as the Huna Arts and Tarot of great enjoyment to me.

All that being said, it's all good man...

And on top of it, I brew a mean batch of homebrew occasionaly... Cheers...

ccasion14:

 

[neilium]

And on top of it, I brew a mean batch of homebrew occasionaly... Cheers...

Ahh, philosophy in liquid form.