help

[gnome]

i just recieved my new body from W, mahogany hollow strat with zebrawood top

naturally i want to leave the guitar nude so u can see the sexy grains, so i was thinking of spraying it with a lacquer spray or poly spray from the local hardwre store

i keep reading abotu needign a sealer though, what's the hell is sealer and can i sue danish oil as sealer?


im in aus so i dont think i can find tru-oil but ill give it a shot
which means my current thinking is

danish oil or tung oil or tru-oil with a clear lacquer or poly spray finish


yes/no?

:glasses9:

 

[jackthehack]

Danish oil would be extremely ill-advised, not a sealer.

You need to meke up your mind as to what type of finish you want to apply. Tung oil, Tru-oil, and lacquer.poly sprays are all top finishes and in most cases should not be used in combinations.

A sealer coat is applied over stain/dye to seal it from top finish.

Start out by reading this long post:

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=1308.0

 

[vanhagar]

Depends on the Danish oil, Go to Lee Valley.com and check out the Deft danish oil, it can be cleared over, but I used it on an alder body that didn't really need a sealer. I'm not really sure why I did it  :icon_scratch: But it did help smooth out the finish for the deft nitro clear. As Jack said though if you need a sealer like ash does it won't work too well.

Paul

 

[gnome]

ok scrap danish oil


how about just lacquer or poly spray on its own?

 

[jackthehack]

Did you read the sticky?

Personally, I think Zebrawood looks best with a very light amber stain or dye, see this thread:

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=271.0

I stained the Zebrawood with Minwax Golden Pecan, the Alder back a different color. I did another build for someone who didn't want pics of his guitar posted; it was a Zebrawood/Mahogany body like yours,  just used the same Pecan stain on both sides on that.

There's a little bit more to this than just letting loose with a rattle can, steps should be:

1.) Color/tint/stain/dye
2.) Grain fill
3.) Sealer coat
4.) Top gloss or satin coats

Depending on color/technique/grain, steps 1.) and 2.) might get swapped. There are no end of posts in DIY finishing on all steps for various finishing products, start there.

 

[gnome]

yeh man read the sticky

im not gonna add any stain but i am doing grain fill

the sealer coat can be the same style coat as teh finish coat cant it? just sanded back a bit? thats wht i seem to find when i search it

 

[jackthehack]

If you're not doing any stain/color, just a straight clear finish I guess you could omit the sealer. Just start your first coats of top finish very light/thin until you get some buildup.

 

[chrisg]

Danish oil would be extremely ill-advised, not a sealer.

You need to meke up your mind as to what type of finish you want to apply. Tung oil, Tru-oil, and lacquer.poly sprays are all top finishes and in most cases should not be used in combinations.

A sealer coat is applied over stain/dye to seal it from top finish.

Start out by reading this long post:

http://www.unofficialwarmoth.com/index.php?topic=1308.0

I don't get the comment about Danish Oil.  In the reference post it states:
Oil and varnish blends -- These mixtures, mostly oil with some varnish added, offer some of the best attributes of both ingredients: the easy application of true oils and the protective qualities of varnish. (Watco-brand Danish oil, teak oil and a number of other finishes fall into this category.) It's difficult to ascribe accurate protective qualities to these products because manufacturers don't usually disclose the ratio of oil to varnish. Oil and varnish blends will dry a bit harder than true oils, and the finishes will build quicker with fewer applications.

As Danish Oil contains varnish and oil then it seems to me the oil will soak into the timber sealing it (a smooth finish can be obtained by sanding in coats) and when the varnish sets this seals the finish?  If you want a further protective coat it can be waxed.  A good quality Danish Oil (like Watco or any with a reasonable varnish content) will provide a good protective finish  :glasses9:

 

[dmraco]

man...I was right where you were a few weeks ago.  I really like what Jackthehack did but wanted a slightly different color and want it to look real natural.

I decided against oil for various reason.

I ended up using Minwax Sedona Red...full strength on the maple neck and cut 1/2 with naptha on the body to get a matching finish.  I will stress I did not gain fill.  I wasa afraid to do it on the zebrawood and again....was going for a natural finish.

I followed up with about 6 coats of spray satin poly.  I did not even have to sand! :hello2:  I simply took some VERY mild polish and applied by hand. 

good luck.

 

[chrisg]

Thanks for that.  BTW your Strat looks very good  :glasses9:

 

[Keyser Soze]

BTW 'sealer' is a generic term for any product that 'seals' off whatever is underneath from whatever you are going to put on top.  It's that simple. 

The reasons can be numerous, but typically sealing is done because there might be something present (e.g. oils, waxes, etc) on the surface of the wood that would lead to problems (e.g. fish eye, cratering, etc.) if the topcoat was applied straight to the wood, or whatever surface that needs sealing.

Almost anything can be used as a sealer - if it is applied properly and is physically compatible with the next layer to be applied.  How do you know for sure?  First check with the manufacturer of the products, and then to b 100% sure test them together.

Sanding sealer is a little more specific.  It generally is a modified form of some particular topcoat that a) is intended to function like a sealer, b) has been formulated with a high solids content (to build rapidly) and c) has additives that allow it to be sanded easily (for creating a very smooth surface ready for topcoating.)

 

[chrisg]

BTW 'sealer' is a generic term for any product that 'seals' off whatever is underneath from whatever you are going to put on top.  It's that simple. 

The reasons can be numerous, but typically sealing is done because there might be something present (e.g. oils, waxes, etc) on the surface of the wood that would lead to problems (e.g. fish eye, cratering, etc.) if the topcoat was applied straight to the wood, or whatever surface that needs sealing.

Almost anything can be used as a sealer - if it is applied properly and is physically compatible with the next layer to be applied.  How do you know for sure?  First check with the manufacturer of the products, and then to b 100% sure test them together.

Sanding sealer is a little more specific.  It generally is a modified form of some particular topcoat that a) is intended to function like a sealer, b) has been formulated with a high solids content (to build rapidly) and c) has additives that allow it to be sanded easily (for creating a very smooth surface ready for topcoating.)

Thanks for that - I understand that now. Interestingly I haven't seen any Danish Oils that recommend using a sealer. I'm guessing they want the product to be absorbed by the wood and figure the smooth surface can be achieved by sanding the wet oil into a slurry.  The advantage from this would be a perception of more 'depth' to the finish; the disadvantage a less durable finish?

 

[DangerousR6]

BTW 'sealer' is a generic term for any product that 'seals' off whatever is underneath from whatever you are going to put on top.  It's that simple. 

The reasons can be numerous, but typically sealing is done because there might be something present (e.g. oils, waxes, etc) on the surface of the wood that would lead to problems (e.g. fish eye, cratering, etc.) if the topcoat was applied straight to the wood, or whatever surface that needs sealing.

Almost anything can be used as a sealer - if it is applied properly and is physically compatible with the next layer to be applied.  How do you know for sure?  First check with the manufacturer of the products, and then to b 100% sure test them together.

Sanding sealer is a little more specific.  It generally is a modified form of some particular topcoat that a) is intended to function like a sealer, b) has been formulated with a high solids content (to build rapidly) and c) has additives that allow it to be sanded easily (for creating a very smooth surface ready for topcoating.)

Thanks for that - I understand that now. Interestingly I haven't seen any Danish Oils that recommend using a sealer. I'm guessing they want the product to be absorbed by the wood and figure the smooth surface can be achieved by sanding the wet oil into a slurry.  The advantage from this would be a perception of more 'depth' to the finish; the disadvantage a less durable finish?

That is exactly true, I've done 2 different bodies with Watco's Danish oil, says nothing on the can about using a sealer. It's purpose is to penetrate into the wood, and yes a smooth surface can be achieved by wet sanding the oil into a slurry. I've done this with walnut and mahogany, albeit the mahogany takes a bit more to fill in, but it will fill in and result in a smooth surface.

jacks point was not to try and use the Danish oil under a poly or nitro like a sealer..

 

[Keyser Soze]

Yes, oil finishes are meant to be directly applied to the wood.  They are literally 'in the wood' finishes, this is how they acheive the effect of enhancing figure and depth.  Unfortunately the fact that they are not something sitting 'on top' of the wood is also the exact reason why they are considered the closest thing to unfinished wood, ie. they provide essentially zero protection for the wood.

Note: oil based varnishes (e.g. Tru-Oil or Formby's) can be applied over sealer, they just won't have the same visual effect as getting the oil component into the wood.

 

[DangerousR6]

Yes, oil finishes are meant to be directly applied to the wood.  They are literally 'in the wood' finishes, this is how they achieve the effect of enhancing figure and depth.  Unfortunately the fact that they are not something sitting 'on top' of the wood is also the exact reason why they are considered the closest thing to unfinished wood, ie. they provide essentially zero protection for the wood.

Note: oil based varnishes (e.g. Tru-Oil or Formby's) can be applied over sealer, they just won't have the same visual effect as getting the oil component into the wood.

I was experimenting with some scraps of mahogany  and maple I have that I used the Danish oil on. I used some clear drying wood glue over top of the oiled pieces, once dried I sanded them smooth with some 400 paper. And they turned out beautifully, no ill effects from the glue at all...

 

[chrisg]

Yes, oil finishes are meant to be directly applied to the wood.  They are literally 'in the wood' finishes, this is how they acheive the effect of enhancing figure and depth.  Unfortunately the fact that they are not something sitting 'on top' of the wood is also the exact reason why they are considered the closest thing to unfinished wood, ie. they provide essentially zero protection for the wood.

Note: oil based varnishes (e.g. Tru-Oil or Formby's) can be applied over sealer, they just won't have the same visual effect as getting the oil component into the wood.

Not sure I understand the logic behind oils providing zero protection for wood.  Once it is absorbed by the wood, Danish oil hardens by polymerization, which uses oxygen from the air to convert the oil and varnish resin to a solid. The first one or two coats (depending on the porosity of the wood) penetrate and seal the wood, so surely this provides "protection" compared to no finish?

 

[DangerousR6]

Yes, oil finishes are meant to be directly applied to the wood.  They are literally 'in the wood' finishes, this is how they acheive the effect of enhancing figure and depth.  Unfortunately the fact that they are not something sitting 'on top' of the wood is also the exact reason why they are considered the closest thing to unfinished wood, ie. they provide essentially zero protection for the wood.

Note: oil based varnishes (e.g. Tru-Oil or Formby's) can be applied over sealer, they just won't have the same visual effect as getting the oil component into the wood.

Not sure I understand the logic behind oils providing zero protection for wood.  Once it is absorbed by the wood, Danish oil hardens by polymerization, which uses oxygen from the air to convert the oil and varnish resin to a solid. The first one or two coats (depending on the porosity of the wood) penetrate and seal the wood, so surely this provides "protection" compared to no finish?

I think what he meant was it provides no surface protection on the wood as far as abrasions and such... :dontknow:

 

[chrisg]

Yes, oil finishes are meant to be directly applied to the wood.  They are literally 'in the wood' finishes, this is how they acheive the effect of enhancing figure and depth.  Unfortunately the fact that they are not something sitting 'on top' of the wood is also the exact reason why they are considered the closest thing to unfinished wood, ie. they provide essentially zero protection for the wood.

Note: oil based varnishes (e.g. Tru-Oil or Formby's) can be applied over sealer, they just won't have the same visual effect as getting the oil component into the wood.

Not sure I understand the logic behind oils providing zero protection for wood.  Once it is absorbed by the wood, Danish oil hardens by polymerization, which uses oxygen from the air to convert the oil and varnish resin to a solid. The first one or two coats (depending on the porosity of the wood) penetrate and seal the wood, so surely this provides "protection" compared to no finish?

I think what he meant was it provides no surface protection on the wood as far as abrasions and such... :dontknow:

That makes sense. thanks  :glasses9:

 

[-CB-]

Ya know..... the first thing that occurred to me was the original poster asked about this and that... not saying really what end they had in mind.

Its like asking "should I take Elm Street or Main Street?" and then adding "I just want to have a nice trip" (aka, see the sexy grain).  Thats all well and good, but where do you want to go?  Whats the destination? 

The trick to finishing a guitar is to have "Vision", knowing what it is you want to end up with.

From there, you choose the materials, and the techniques to get what you're after.

If you find that a material is not available, or the technique is beyond your skill (or equipment) level, you can re-evaluate what you're after - compromise.

But to willy-nilly use a product, because its easy to use, or because its available in Home Depot, or because your cousins ex boyfriends drummer used it on his bare shells... ya know where I'm goin with that.  Its a recipe for dis-appointment.  Not failure, just not really making the mark.

Sometimes the looking, the seeking, the investigation into what you really want, refines your Vision and helps solidify things in your mind.

Anyway, enough philosophy for a Monday.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Yes, oil finishes are meant to be directly applied to the wood.  They are literally 'in the wood' finishes, this is how they acheive the effect of enhancing figure and depth.  Unfortunately the fact that they are not something sitting 'on top' of the wood is also the exact reason why they are considered the closest thing to unfinished wood, ie. they provide essentially zero protection for the wood.

Note: oil based varnishes (e.g. Tru-Oil or Formby's) can be applied over sealer, they just won't have the same visual effect as getting the oil component into the wood.

Not sure I understand the logic behind oils providing zero protection for wood.  Once it is absorbed by the wood, Danish oil hardens by polymerization, which uses oxygen from the air to convert the oil and varnish resin to a solid. The first one or two coats (depending on the porosity of the wood) penetrate and seal the wood, so surely this provides "protection" compared to no finish?

The problem/confusion stems from the use of generic terms when speaking of specific products, e.g. Watco is merely one brand of 'Danish oil finish.' 

Unfortunately there are significant differences between products and the manufacturers are really horrible about telling you what is actually in their product.  Watco says their product contains varnish, but also says the finish is 'in the wood' not 'on the the wood.'  Practically speaking you cannot apply multiple layers of Watco to build up a hard surface film on top of the wood.  For this reason I would not call Watco a varnish (even though the manufacturer says it contains varnish.)

So yes, danish oil does not offer surface protection from wear and abrasion, but even further anything that contacts the surface effectively contacts the wood, including sweat, bodily oils, dirt, water, beer - whatever and once it is 'in the wood' it isn't coming back out.  These products also do not penetrate very far and once the surface is abraded you have exposed raw wood. 

They are better than nothing, but not by much (that's the reason I said essentially zero protection.)

I love the look of wax and oil finishes on wood, but would only use them on a guitar if the wood was specifically of the types that 'do not need a finish' since these are naturally resistant to all the above mentioned grunge and grime.  Other types of guitar wood really deserve better protection, especially since they get handled so heavily and frequently.