Mr Real Nice
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Is it always necessary to grain fill, even for solid colors? It's on a swamp ash warmoth body. Can I just start priming after it arrives or do I need to sand/fill first?
Grain Fill Necessary?
- Thread starter Mr Real Nice
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sundin4prez
Senior Member
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you will be able to see the grain through the solid paint
Mr Real Nice
Senior Member
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k thanks.
jackthehack
Epic Member
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Yes
If you don't fill the wood - you'll end up with grain lines showing in the final finish
If you're gonna solid color it, may I humbly suggest the super glue route, as I'm totally pleased with the results. You can use other water based or oil based fillers, but on a wood like swamp ash, with its deep deep grain... I really like how the superglue went in, dried fast, and was level in about 1/16 the time as traditional old school grain fill.
I actually took the wood surface down to 400 grit, and there's not really any detection of grain at all after it was leveled. I used 320grit "3x" paper (Home Depot) on a Dewalt 1/4 sheet sander for the leveling and for the 400 grit final. The trick is to not press in at all and to keep the sander moving all over (heat builds up). You could do a first level with a sander to save elbow grease, then switch to a traditional block if you're skittish about keeping things totally flat with a power saner (you can end up with non flat wood REAL quick so be careful).
Let me add a bit about non-flat wood. When you sand using a block, its slow enough that hardly any heat is generated. The wood does not expand much at all while you sand. When you use a sander, it is possible - through too much sanding on one area, or through too much pressure - to raise the wood along its natural expansion. On ash, that means the light areas and dark areas will react differently when they get warm, and the swelling will be uneven. The lighter (denser) areas will swell more, and you'll end up with the darker (less dense) areas being sunken when it cools off. That is NOT desirable for a good finish. So, either hit the superglue in its rough sate with the sander, then switch to a 3m block, OR, be real careful with the sander, and keep fresh paper on it, and clean the paper well and frequently. Don't use more pressure if the area is still rough. In fact, just keep moving around and come back there occasionally. You don't want things to get hot by leaving the sander in a small area, so keep moving. Similarly, you don't want to add pressure - which makes more heat, so keep a light touch and fresh paper - which cuts better and creates less heat in so doing.
The same holds true when power sanding any wood really, no matter the finish... CA, lacquer, filler, poly... its all the same when heat is involved.
If you want a smooth finish, you want that wood to be just about as smooth as the finished guitar - BEFORE - you spray it.
If you're using lacquer - there's much added benefit from having level wood. The lacquer goes on evenly, and it dries evenly, with less shrinkage into the grain. This allows for leveling of the orange peel with less cure time, and promotes an overall smooth finish and one that continues to stay smooth as it shrinks.
If you're gonna solid color it, may I humbly suggest the super glue route, as I'm totally pleased with the results. You can use other water based or oil based fillers, but on a wood like swamp ash, with its deep deep grain... I really like how the superglue went in, dried fast, and was level in about 1/16 the time as traditional old school grain fill.
I actually took the wood surface down to 400 grit, and there's not really any detection of grain at all after it was leveled. I used 320grit "3x" paper (Home Depot) on a Dewalt 1/4 sheet sander for the leveling and for the 400 grit final. The trick is to not press in at all and to keep the sander moving all over (heat builds up). You could do a first level with a sander to save elbow grease, then switch to a traditional block if you're skittish about keeping things totally flat with a power saner (you can end up with non flat wood REAL quick so be careful).
Let me add a bit about non-flat wood. When you sand using a block, its slow enough that hardly any heat is generated. The wood does not expand much at all while you sand. When you use a sander, it is possible - through too much sanding on one area, or through too much pressure - to raise the wood along its natural expansion. On ash, that means the light areas and dark areas will react differently when they get warm, and the swelling will be uneven. The lighter (denser) areas will swell more, and you'll end up with the darker (less dense) areas being sunken when it cools off. That is NOT desirable for a good finish. So, either hit the superglue in its rough sate with the sander, then switch to a 3m block, OR, be real careful with the sander, and keep fresh paper on it, and clean the paper well and frequently. Don't use more pressure if the area is still rough. In fact, just keep moving around and come back there occasionally. You don't want things to get hot by leaving the sander in a small area, so keep moving. Similarly, you don't want to add pressure - which makes more heat, so keep a light touch and fresh paper - which cuts better and creates less heat in so doing.
The same holds true when power sanding any wood really, no matter the finish... CA, lacquer, filler, poly... its all the same when heat is involved.
If you want a smooth finish, you want that wood to be just about as smooth as the finished guitar - BEFORE - you spray it.
If you're using lacquer - there's much added benefit from having level wood. The lacquer goes on evenly, and it dries evenly, with less shrinkage into the grain. This allows for leveling of the orange peel with less cure time, and promotes an overall smooth finish and one that continues to stay smooth as it shrinks.
Mr Real Nice
Senior Member
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Thanks for the lengthy reply. I've just started the bulk of my research today so I apologize for any newb questions. Here's one for you, though: What does CA stand for?
Also, I was considering using Deft Sanding Sealer with the Preval sprayer. Is it true that this sealer will act as my filler? (Are sealers and fillers different words for the same thing? Also, is a "sealer coat" the same thing as a "filler coat"?) Can I use this (Deft sealer) and then touch it up with super glue where it needs extra attention if necessary? How would I use super glue exclusively? It seems like a rather large area to cover with those tiny little squeeze tubes. Is there a write-up on this method somewhere?
Ok, I just re-read your post and noticed that you got rid of most of the grain by just sanding, eh? I guess I'll start with that then and see where I end up and use sealer/super glue as necessary. Good game plan?
I don't own nor do I wish to buy an electric sander, so this will all be by hand, but thanks for the tips on that.
Forgot to mention this is on a Tele body in case it matters for anything.
Also, I was considering using Deft Sanding Sealer with the Preval sprayer. Is it true that this sealer will act as my filler? (Are sealers and fillers different words for the same thing? Also, is a "sealer coat" the same thing as a "filler coat"?) Can I use this (Deft sealer) and then touch it up with super glue where it needs extra attention if necessary? How would I use super glue exclusively? It seems like a rather large area to cover with those tiny little squeeze tubes. Is there a write-up on this method somewhere?
Ok, I just re-read your post and noticed that you got rid of most of the grain by just sanding, eh? I guess I'll start with that then and see where I end up and use sealer/super glue as necessary. Good game plan?
I don't own nor do I wish to buy an electric sander, so this will all be by hand, but thanks for the tips on that.
Forgot to mention this is on a Tele body in case it matters for anything.
What does CA stand for?
Cyanowhateveritis... SuperGlue
Also, I was considering using Deft Sanding Sealer with the Preval sprayer. Is it true that this sealer will act as my filler? (Are sealers and fillers different words for the same thing? Also, is a "sealer coat" the same thing as a "filler coat"?) Can I use this (Deft sealer) and then touch it up with super glue where it needs extra attention if necessary? How would I use super glue exclusively? It seems like a rather large area to cover with those tiny little squeeze tubes. Is there a write-up on this method somewhere?
Sanding sealer works ok on moderate grain woods, or in cases where you dont mind some grain "showing", as in clear finishes on some cabinetry and such... or on floors. Deft sanding sealer is a full bodied nitro lacquer, designed to lay down a thicker coat when the solvents have dried. Its purpose is to both fill the wood a bit, and to "seal" the next coats, which are thinner, and formulated for top coat use, from sinking into the wood, and showing excessive grain pattern.
Super glue can be brushed on, and bought in larger body containers that actually include a brush. I got a large body container that had no brush... and just scribbled it on, but a brush would work better. You may be able to take a "craft stick" and fashion a spreader. I ended up doing two applications of CA, and then some ding touch ups too.
You could do the whole fill with Deft sanding sealer, but it would take forever, and still run a shrink in risk. There's a thread here on super glue fill (by me)
Ok, I just re-read your post and noticed that you got rid of most of the grain by just sanding, eh? I guess I'll start with that then and see where I end up and use sealer/super glue as necessary. Good game plan?
On the body in the thread, I did two fills with colored filler for the color effect, but the grain wasn't filled yet. Ash has deeeeeeep grain, and thats when I broke out the CA, so I wouldn't have to spend forever filling it.
I don't own nor do I wish to buy an electric sander, so this will all be by hand, but thanks for the tips on that.
Cheap sanders - about $20, worth it.
Cyanowhateveritis... SuperGlue
Also, I was considering using Deft Sanding Sealer with the Preval sprayer. Is it true that this sealer will act as my filler? (Are sealers and fillers different words for the same thing? Also, is a "sealer coat" the same thing as a "filler coat"?) Can I use this (Deft sealer) and then touch it up with super glue where it needs extra attention if necessary? How would I use super glue exclusively? It seems like a rather large area to cover with those tiny little squeeze tubes. Is there a write-up on this method somewhere?
Sanding sealer works ok on moderate grain woods, or in cases where you dont mind some grain "showing", as in clear finishes on some cabinetry and such... or on floors. Deft sanding sealer is a full bodied nitro lacquer, designed to lay down a thicker coat when the solvents have dried. Its purpose is to both fill the wood a bit, and to "seal" the next coats, which are thinner, and formulated for top coat use, from sinking into the wood, and showing excessive grain pattern.
Super glue can be brushed on, and bought in larger body containers that actually include a brush. I got a large body container that had no brush... and just scribbled it on, but a brush would work better. You may be able to take a "craft stick" and fashion a spreader. I ended up doing two applications of CA, and then some ding touch ups too.
You could do the whole fill with Deft sanding sealer, but it would take forever, and still run a shrink in risk. There's a thread here on super glue fill (by me)
Ok, I just re-read your post and noticed that you got rid of most of the grain by just sanding, eh? I guess I'll start with that then and see where I end up and use sealer/super glue as necessary. Good game plan?
On the body in the thread, I did two fills with colored filler for the color effect, but the grain wasn't filled yet. Ash has deeeeeeep grain, and thats when I broke out the CA, so I wouldn't have to spend forever filling it.
I don't own nor do I wish to buy an electric sander, so this will all be by hand, but thanks for the tips on that.
Cheap sanders - about $20, worth it.
Mr Real Nice
Senior Member
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Cool. Excellent info. Thanks again. More questions...Do you have any experience with the Lawrence-McFaddden Grain Filler sold at stewmac? It seems like this in conjunction with CA (like that lingo usage? :glasses9: ) should give me a smooth guitar body. After that, I would use the deft sealer and then prime and paint, correct?
gah...sorry for all the questions. I'm honestly looking forward to wiring up the electronics a lot more than finishing the body since I have more experience with that kind of stuff. My experience with wood goes back to 8th grade when I made a stupid lamp. :icon_thumright: Still, this will hopefully be a rewarding experience.
gah...sorry for all the questions. I'm honestly looking forward to wiring up the electronics a lot more than finishing the body since I have more experience with that kind of stuff. My experience with wood goes back to 8th grade when I made a stupid lamp. :icon_thumright: Still, this will hopefully be a rewarding experience.
Patrick from Davis
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CyanoAcrylate. It is a name of a family of chemical compounds (R group-CyanoAcrylate) that react with water (OH's) to form anionic polymerization reactions. Just for completeness sake, fingernail polish remover (Acetone) will dissolve it.
Patrick
Patrick
Mrrealnice, there are a ton of postings in the DIY finish section that will probably answer most of your questions. I guarantee you'll have about a thousand more, I certainly did and still do. Also read the 'instructions' on Stew mac's finishing products, and everything at the reranch and project guitar sites.
Mr Real Nice
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Thanks for the tips, tfarny. I've been reading and re-reading that stuff pretty much all day and it's sinking in more and more, but I guess I'm just being cautious by double-checking some things with people on the board. I apologize if I'm being excessive or repetitive. I try to keep it to a minimum and I use the search function extensively. I promise to put pictures up eventually (still waiting on the body at the moment) and hopefully that will make everyone happy. Everyone loves pictures! 
ccasion14:
ccasion14:Mr Real Nice said:
Not sure about McFadden but I just used the waterbase grain filler from StewMac, first a coat of black, then one of brown. It did the shallow grain really well. The deep stuff got the CA treatment, then sanded back, the CA again and sanded back. Then I actually did use Deft twice over the whole body. That was BRUSH on Deft and I used it with a brush!~~ Then one last sanding down with 400 on the sander and its baby's butt. Then I ding'd it, and had to do a quick CA fill on that (doh). So its basically ready to shoot.
DangerousR6
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I kinda dig the open grained look........I have a couple of jacksons done that way.....
