Gibson in deep deep offal
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Volitions Advocate
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all I can say is that I think you need to earn a label like " Les Paul " and I don't think Gibby has been living up it for a long time. There are tons and tons of smaller companies and indie guys pumping out better guitars. I'll stick with W and soulmate until my bandsaw and router skills become top notch. and then I'll probably still buy from these guys on occasion.
Interesting. Economese is hard enough in Swedish, so I didn't really understand all of the technical stuff, but you get a clear feeling that they have been badly struck by greed. Reminds me of what happened with many music companies when the 60's became the 70's - the suits taking over.
O
OzziePete
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Mmmm. This sort of story annoys the hell outta me.
Gibson is not some 'no name' brand trying to sell guitars, it is an icon of the industry.. Dispensing with the board, taking a majority share, ignoring the employees and retailers/distributors, is all not good business. And this guy went to Harvard!
I suppose crunch time is looming, because if he cannot satisfy the credit providers with decent financial data they will simply stop credit and call what they are owed, in. And the adverse publicity is going to make it hard for Gibson to shop around for another banker.
The Gibson brand name deserves better treatment by it's owner.
Gibson is not some 'no name' brand trying to sell guitars, it is an icon of the industry.. Dispensing with the board, taking a majority share, ignoring the employees and retailers/distributors, is all not good business. And this guy went to Harvard!
I suppose crunch time is looming, because if he cannot satisfy the credit providers with decent financial data they will simply stop credit and call what they are owed, in. And the adverse publicity is going to make it hard for Gibson to shop around for another banker.
The Gibson brand name deserves better treatment by it's owner.
OzziePete said:
THAT quote is really at the heart of the matter! This company is an American icon of musical instruments. It's NOT just some lame-ass start-up, funky family (as in organized crime) business, or banking, stocks & securities scam - but a true historical innovator and purveyor of craftsmanship that all others have been judged by the world over. It's criminal what's become of the name and reputation of Gibson. It's also criminal that all the dedicated workers would be embarrassed, out of work and benefits IF the company were to succumb to the anal abuse of this scumbag. Be careful before you critique a whole company for the failings of one insipid individual......least you experience (first hand) the pain and suffering experienced by the builders, buyers, and sellers of this once proud institution
When Henry took over Gibson, he went out on the factory floor and bashed semi complete guitars to the ground - smashing them as best he could - screaming "This is not a Gibson!".
That sort of brash style is all about ego. And ego has very little place in business, except maybe in the advertising dept.
That sort of brash style is all about ego. And ego has very little place in business, except maybe in the advertising dept.
O
OzziePete
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I have heard [rumour] that the group of companies are being prepped for a sell out. Henry, by having the ownership totally, can negotiate what he wants to sell, how it's managed & what price he'll settle on. Heck, he may even have people talking to him now about one brand marque or another & no one would know. That's if he gets to finalise the sale(s) before a creditor stops the party & calls in the debts. But who'd wanna do business with Henry? Given all this bad publicity & bad industry vibe - you'd wonder if he sold you a huge lemon to suck on.
When you look at the brand names under Gibson, there's some well known ones that can be revved up a notch with a bit of marketing and perform much better than what they have been under the Gibson umbrella.
When you look at the brand names under Gibson, there's some well known ones that can be revved up a notch with a bit of marketing and perform much better than what they have been under the Gibson umbrella.
The problem is... you'd be relying on some folks to re-capitalize the company. The creditors would go for that. There are most likely covenants that prohibit the sale of major stock amounts unless agreed to by the creditors....so thinking on that some more... they'd probably go for a recapitalization, or call in their debts and assume management of the company.
Either case is a problem. Its a problem because at least Henry knew how to build a guitar. He's a guitar nut and he knows a good one, and what it takes to make a good one. You get creditors involved... you're back to Norlin days.
Yes, history does repeat itself.
Either case is a problem. Its a problem because at least Henry knew how to build a guitar. He's a guitar nut and he knows a good one, and what it takes to make a good one. You get creditors involved... you're back to Norlin days.
Yes, history does repeat itself.
Return of Guitlouie
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It's going to get worse before it gets better if you ask me.
Cagey
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This may be the beginning of the end. Gibson may be an icon, but they've been running on inertia for a long time. At one time, only serious guitar players bought Gibsons because they were a premium brand with premium quality that they could charge for. Any more, anybody with a few grand can buy a CNC machine and rustle up some premium wood suppliers and luthiers, and turn out some very fine instruments. An Agile 3000 http://www.rondomusic.com/al3000hsbfslim.html is every bit of a Les Paul Custom, at 1/10 the price. Gibson is living in a bubble that has to burst. I wanna buy American as much as the next guy, but come on! At least meet me halfway! Clearly, the Gibson management is raping their customer base, and that can't possibly last.
Not sure where your going with the " anyone can buy a CNC machine" Comment, nothing wrong with machining out parts, but, you gotta have real people with skills to finnish it off, ie... good joints fitting and settup.
A pre machined part should leave you plenty of space, or rather time and dollars to spread on real assembly and setup quality.
Oops, Cagey, I re-read your post, your right, we are in agreement
A pre machined part should leave you plenty of space, or rather time and dollars to spread on real assembly and setup quality.
Oops, Cagey, I re-read your post, your right, we are in agreement
Companies open and close all the time. The Roman Empire rose to a power nobody ever imagined and eventually it crumbled, too. Regardless what happens to Gibson, having accomplished something great 50+ years ago does not make them any more or less deserving of being kept alive. It's a company that's being poorly run and whoever's responsible needs to get what's coming to them. Wouldn't make an ounce of difference to me if Gibson up and disappeared, because somebody else would come in and corner their share of the market and probably do a better job of it too.
I wouldn't mind seeing GIbson bought out by Fender
I wouldn't mind seeing GIbson bought out by Fender
Cagey
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dNA said:
That would be like the Democrats buying out the Republicans. Regardless of the old saw about opposites attracting, two entirely different philosophies rarely make one coherent entity.
If anyone should buy Gibson, it would probably be better if it were PRS, and then only to do a Microsoft/Borg-type move - embrace, extend and extinguish. Let all the old Gibsons become collector's items, and keep whatever patents/trademarks/copyrights/designs either off the market, or as part of the ongoing fine line they already make under their own name.
IMHO, Gibson's shortfall, is the way they treated the dealership network... if you want to call it a network. They'd come in, after a dealer placed a $90,000 order for guitars, and demand that he buy an additional $250,000, give 40 percent or even 60 percent of his wall space to Gibson, delete certain other lines, etc.
Dealers know where the money is. Not everyone can buy a $1000 or $1500 or $3000 guitar.
What Gibson should have done, is split their products within the same brand, keeping the really high end stuff for the dealers willing to make the commitment. That would have worked better - overall - than alienating all the small dealers across the country. As it stands, if there isn't a GC or SA near you, you're gonna be hard pressed to find more than legacy stock at dealerships.
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"The Roman Empire rose to a power nobody ever imagined and eventually it crumbled, too"
The Roman Empire, as I'd like to say, crumbled because of yellow dye. In short, Rome had been trading with "the barbarians" of the north, aka, proto-Germans, for a very long time. In fact, lots of the BPG (barbarous-proto-germans) really liked it in Rome, went there, became "undocumented-workeers" aka "migrant-slaves" (which by Roman law were not treated all that bad, and released without Citizenship after a certain time of paid-servitude). The Romans in the north of the Empire, began disliking all the Ooompa music on the radio, and the street signs and shop window signs being printed in Latin and German, but hey... those u-d's had gold to spend, that is, any which they didn't send back to BPG. At some point, you couldn't tell the u-d's from the released BPG's, there were so many of them, so the north appealed to Ceaser, who with the Senate, came up with a great solution, which was to make anyone from proto-Germany wear a uniform. The yellow dye was cheapest, so it was decided to make them wear a yellow vestment. This plan rolled out nicely until all the BPG's were uniformed, looked about and found out... Heiliger Bimbam!... there's lots and lots more of "us" than "them Roman gringos", and a revolt was started. Word of this soon reached the forces of the proto-German warlords, and they came to assist (and conquer) the north of Rome. It was a soft fall. The Romans couldn't fight well, because their rules of engagement dictated they couldn't just burn cities down to the ground and such. So the BPG's came in, told the indigenous Romans, ok you work for us now, we get the tax money. And that was that. It was a soft fall of Rome. Very soft. A little at a time. Almost painless.
Dealers know where the money is. Not everyone can buy a $1000 or $1500 or $3000 guitar.
What Gibson should have done, is split their products within the same brand, keeping the really high end stuff for the dealers willing to make the commitment. That would have worked better - overall - than alienating all the small dealers across the country. As it stands, if there isn't a GC or SA near you, you're gonna be hard pressed to find more than legacy stock at dealerships.
===
"The Roman Empire rose to a power nobody ever imagined and eventually it crumbled, too"
The Roman Empire, as I'd like to say, crumbled because of yellow dye. In short, Rome had been trading with "the barbarians" of the north, aka, proto-Germans, for a very long time. In fact, lots of the BPG (barbarous-proto-germans) really liked it in Rome, went there, became "undocumented-workeers" aka "migrant-slaves" (which by Roman law were not treated all that bad, and released without Citizenship after a certain time of paid-servitude). The Romans in the north of the Empire, began disliking all the Ooompa music on the radio, and the street signs and shop window signs being printed in Latin and German, but hey... those u-d's had gold to spend, that is, any which they didn't send back to BPG. At some point, you couldn't tell the u-d's from the released BPG's, there were so many of them, so the north appealed to Ceaser, who with the Senate, came up with a great solution, which was to make anyone from proto-Germany wear a uniform. The yellow dye was cheapest, so it was decided to make them wear a yellow vestment. This plan rolled out nicely until all the BPG's were uniformed, looked about and found out... Heiliger Bimbam!... there's lots and lots more of "us" than "them Roman gringos", and a revolt was started. Word of this soon reached the forces of the proto-German warlords, and they came to assist (and conquer) the north of Rome. It was a soft fall. The Romans couldn't fight well, because their rules of engagement dictated they couldn't just burn cities down to the ground and such. So the BPG's came in, told the indigenous Romans, ok you work for us now, we get the tax money. And that was that. It was a soft fall of Rome. Very soft. A little at a time. Almost painless.
erogenousjones17
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And that concludes this week's episode of "History With CB."
Cagey said:
See, what I don't get is people acting like these companies represent anything other than a logo. The people who founded both companies - the people responsible for all the distinguishing designs and the innovations - those people have nothing to do with Fender or Gibson anymore. To argue that they are two companies with totally different philosophies is not only untrue, but it's probably the opposite of the truth. Like most companies in this country that have been around long enough for the founders to have moved on or passed on, they are owned by people who bought them out. People who saw - this company has a reputation and a namesake that is recognizable and memorable, and therefore worth money to people. Both companies are run by people who are basically doing the same thing, which is improving upon somebody else's idea to sustain quality and marketability. If Fender bought out Gibson, they wouldn't start making Les Pauls with bolt on necks or making SGs have alder bodies. They'd essentially try to keep doing what anybody else who buys them out would do - keep making them almost exactly the same with only minimal changes to make sure they are up to modern standards.
The advantage i saw of Fender buying them out is mostly because it seemed like Fender has done a much better job of running their company than this guy Henry did Gibson. Both their marketing and their designs. I feel like they succeeded, because they've been doing what Gibson hasn't. They haven't tried marketing $3000 robot guitars to people who are traditionalists and want their Les Pauls to be exactly what they were 40 years ago. And for every complaint I hear about somebody who bought a high-end fender and wasn't happy, I hear at least 50 complaining about a Gibson, often custom shop models, that were poorly set up, the frets weren't properly filed, the nut was really badly cut, etc.
In the end I'm not likely gonna buy guitars from either company unless I'm landing an endorsement deal that's worth my while. But of the two giants, I've always liked Fender better and that's why i thought it'd be cool if they bought them out. Also, if Fender bought Gibson they wouldn't have any crossover type models to compete with eachother and you'd see each company respectively doing more of what they do best at a more honest price point. In general though, I don't see how it makes a difference who buys them out - whoever buys them out is essentially going to just keep making a lot of the same stuff. It wouldn't make sense to buy them out and dissolve the company when the name alone carries so much weight. But who knows. If the Gibson name really does go the way of the dodo, you're sure to find other options with a different name stamped on them that'll make you just as happy. As long as there's demand, someone will always step up to supply. That's how capitalism usually works out
Maybe Gibson should cease production of Les Paul models... wait... better yet... come out with a new improved Les Paul that really sucks. Wait about two years, then come out with Les Paul traditional models.
Oh wait, they did that. Never mind.
The offal heaps grow deeper in Nashville by the hour.
Oh wait, they did that. Never mind.
The offal heaps grow deeper in Nashville by the hour.
I imagine one day the tale of Gibson will be taught in business schools as the pinnacle of mismanagement. Every move they've made has been designed to wave their dicks around, not make good guitars or even good money. Case in point: the robot guitar. A stupid idea with an absurd price tag... I bet they didn't even make back the R&D costs it took to invent that turd.
dbw said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was a total joke of an "invention".
I just always felt like the company has been with an arrogant, thinking they can just rest on their laurels and people will buy whatever crap they put their name on. As a teenager I always thought Gibsons were so glorious because I believed all the marketing I saw in ads and catalogs - then as I got older and I met a lot more musicians I saw almost no people who knew guitars really respected Gibson's work anymore. It's a shame, but again, I dont' think it's much of a loss. I'm happy to support other companies who make a better product and i trust they'll probably run their business better too
